Flush draw in EP or MP PART II

Here's a hand that replicates a play I like to make and I was wondering if I was playing it optimally.


Fairly tight for a LL game (only 4 or five to the flop on average. Even a few players that have some idea how to play. Still fairly passive though. I'm dealt AdTd in MP. UTG, EP, myself, CO limp, SB completes, BB knuckles.


Flop comes 2d 7d Ks checked to me, I bet. CO calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, EP folds.


Turn Jd. UTG checks, I bet. CO raises, BB and UTG fold. I reraise. CO (a solid player for LL) looks at me suspiciously and calls.


River 4c. I bet once more... Results, reasoning and questions below.


.


.


.


.


.


.


.


.


.


.


.


.


.


.


.


.

The CO stares at me for a few seconds and declares "this is an information call" and calls my bet. I show my flush and he mucks. I like to bet on the flop in this case because I feel from EP or MP it represents something more akin to top pair than a flush draw. In the lower limits it seems that this makes a lot of players slow to give you credit for the draw, since the majority of those players will check-call their draws until they hit. When the flush card hit on the turn, I think the CO was tryng to bluff me out of the pot by representing a flush (If he had hit one I'm pretty sure he would have reraised. More likely he made two pair). I Actually think the call was the best I could have done anyway because of the passivity of the game. The only hand I can think of that would have paid me off better would be a K or Q high flush, and maybe a set. On the river I figure that continuing to bet is the best play, since I have the nuts and LL players often will make "information calls." I think this play might work even better at a higher limit because they might be even less inclined to put me on a draw, especially if I could come off as an inexperienced player (which I would be in the middle limits). This is just a guess though and of course the texture of the game will always make a difference.


Would anyone have played this differently? I have debated with myself whether I should have maybe only called the raise on the turn and checkraised the river. I have met very few LL players that would not call a checkraise on the river even if they didn't like it. He probably would have bet because of either his made flush, or the need to follow through on the bluff. Comments welcome.

With that flop, you have too much cheese on the table to have players fold to your top pair representation. So, this play does not steal a pot.


As far as players mis-reading my hand as a top-pair, I feel I have more to gain by trapping players. On low limits, once a player has one bet in, they will likely put two in. And when they put two in, they will put another in at the river.


I want to keep as many players in the pot as you can. I would prefer to check the flop and c/r the turn if you can trap a few players. If you can't trap a few players I would wait until the river for the c/r.

Thanks for the input. I wasn't really trying to steal the pot though. With anything short of nothing, most LL players will call a flop bet if not a raise. I feel if it's checked around on the flop, players are more likely to fold to a bet on the turn anyway. And if I try a checkraise on the turn, what happens if instead UTG or EP bets. Then I am doubly likely to knock out at least three players. I probably can trap more people in the hand by betting the flop IMO. What do you all think? Maybe I could try to checkraise the flop although I'm not sure if anyone would bet. If nobody bet the flop, it's very possible nobody would bet the turn as well, at least in this game.

Wanderer,


You played it great. As far as whether to whether to reraise on the turn or call and go for the checkraise on the flop, I think the reraise on the turn is the better play. First, assuming everything went exactly as you thought it would, you'd win the same number of bets either way. Three bets on the turn when he raises and calls you reraise, and one when he calls your river bet. Or: two on the turn when he raises and you just call, and two on the river when he bets and calls your checkraise. And I don't think it's a guarantee that he wouldn't just check behind you on the river, costing you two bets. So the way you played it was fine.


I'm curious as to what he put you on, though. Top pair on the flop?


Matt

I think your play works. Just my experince - I find I can build a better pot by pulling back on the flop and letting others do the betting for me. With that much cheese, you're guaranteed a bet on the flop.


Turn-- if you can't trap, then sit back and collect the toll! Amazing what people will call with -- a bare K, Q even J. So you get these bets. Save the c/r for the river if you can't trap.


As I always say -- it's really hard to misplay the nuts. However, there are some that do -- see other post on misplaying quads -- lol.

Yeah, checkraising the river is one thing that I have debated over. Thanks for the input. Lol, it is pretty hard to misplay the nuts, but I guess it can be done /images/smile.gif

He did say afterwards that he thought I had top pair. My reraise on the turn into a flush board is what made him reconsider.

In this situation I think betting is a good play. You only have one possible bettor behind you and at LL you will surely get enough callers to make this bet worthwhile. If the CO was an overly aggressive type, I would probably just check to him and let him bet the pot for me and trap players in between. The last thing I want is to bet here and get raised by CO and see the early players drop. In a typical passive LL game, I think you need to bet here.


In earlier position I would probably let it go by and look for opportunities to pump that pot if a lot of folks had limped in after the bettor.


I like the raise on the river. Get the money while you can, especially if CO likes to get tricky. At low limit, just like you said, it is pretty rare for someone to pop you on the turn and the lay down after a reraise or to a river bet.

With only one player behind him on the flop, does he really want to let this flop get checked around? His Ace may even be good if it hits based on the weak play of the field so I think he wants to make sure the money makes into the pot.


If he was earlier I agree on letting some one else bet the pot for me and trap players in between.

Here's a hand that replicates a play I like to make and I was wondering if I was playing it optimally.


Honestly, I can't see anything in your play which isn't standard. You should always be betting your flush draws on the flop when you get checked too- especially your nut flush draws. One of the key reasons for betting this hand is to vary your play compared to those times when you bet your "real" top pair, set, etc. hands.


Betting flush draws and straight draws are the perfect semi-bluffing opportunities you need to use to mix up your play.


On the turn and river, you bet and raise your nut hand.


3-betting the turn is vastly superior than attempting a checkraise on the river.


Magithighs ideas about checking the flop as some type of trapping play are very poor.

"The CO stares at me for a few seconds and declares "this is an information call" and calls my bet. "


My take on this is the NEXT TIME a simular hand played out against the same player, I would try my darnest to make different moves on every street. He already announced to the table he's watching and taking notes.

"letting others do the betting for me" is a sentiment that I work to eliminate from all my discussions of low limit hold 'em.


KJS

>Here's a hand that replicates a play I like to

>make and I was wondering if I was playing it

>optimally.


>Fairly tight for a LL game (only 4 or five to

>the flop on average. Even a few players that

>have some idea how to play. Still fairly passive

>though. I'm dealt AdTd in MP. UTG, EP, myself,

>CO limp, SB completes, BB knuckles.


>Flop comes 2d 7d Ks checked to me, I bet. CO

>calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, EP folds.


You can't vary your play here. You must open the betting to give yourself every chance to win in the case that an Ace comes off. You're trying to get rid of AJ or even another AT.


>Turn Jd. UTG checks, I bet. CO raises, BB and

>UTG fold. I reraise. CO (a solid player for LL)

>looks at me suspiciously and calls.


You can vary your play here. You can bet (and 3-bet), or you can checkraise.


>River 4c. I bet once more... Results, reasoning

>and questions below.


Try and think about what you may gain from checkraising the turn. If there were more players behind you, I would almost always checkraise.

Based on Dynasty's comments I think I have found a way to misplay nuts. Yikes! I'd rather be humbled here than at the table and have to give someone my money.


Just some insight into my comments. I play exclusively online where people track your hands and tendancies and log what you do by percentage. The reason for my thinking is that I do normally bet out in this situation -- I think too often.


What I've found recently is that stronger players to my left will try to isolate me, and raise and kill my action. So, I end up heads up instead of a multi-way pot.


Thus if I have a good read on the player to my left, I will check the flop so as not to kill my action on a nut flush draw with five players in the pot. I want to keep everyone in. The same strong player will bet this for me -- like clockwork.


Maybe this should just be a temporary adjustment on my part!

i like how you played it on every street. you shouldnt check this flop. its been checked to you, bet it. dynasty makes a great point in how it mixes play. one of the many benefits.


i like the turn play, you turned a str8 draw also, so you had many outs...


not sure id check raise the river. unless your damn sure he bets. its a tough bet to miss and many will check behind you here, especially with the smaller flush. id have watched how he played earlier to see if it was feasible. but id bet it the % of the time, just to make sure i get the bet. checking it thru will give you sick feeling.


b

What I've found recently is that stronger players to my left will try to isolate me, and raise and kill my action. So, I end up heads up instead of a multi-way pot.


I think this is a good thing, even though you will be out of position for the hand.


Let's put it another way. Let's say the player on your immediate right bets on a flop of:


2d 7d Ks (the same as in Wanderer's hand)


What's your play if you've got AdTd?


My play is to raise and knock everybody else out and play heads-up. By doing this, I take the pot more often by spiking an Ace on the turn or river and winning with just one pair. If others call two cold behind me, that's just fine too since I'm drawing to the nuts.


What's your play if you've god KhQc?


My play is to raise and knock everyboyd else out and play heads-up. By doing this, I take the pot more often by having my one pair hand hold up. In this case, it's not quite as good to have many calling two cold behind you. But, I'm not going to complain about it.


So, if you bet the flop with the flush draw and the player on your immediate left raises, isn't he doing you a favor?


I play exclusively online where people track your hands and tendancies and log what you do by percentage.


Betting and raising with your "real" hands like top pair/strong kicker and semi-bluffing with your drawing hands is designed to make it very difficult to read you.


If you played AdTd and KhQc exactly the same way in this hand, how can they possibly put you on a hand?

Glad I'm still learning and listening. One thing about playing 1/2 is that most often there are others making more mistakes than myself and I can walk away a winner. Figuring out my mistakes - that's why I'm here - so I appreciate your comments!


Yes, I make the same play with ATs, or KQo and someone bets into me. Soooooo often there are even two people behind me calling two bets cold (in the second case, people regularly call with a bare ace, low pair). Yikes, to these people behind me, but thank goodness they are there.


I guess I'm not as strong a player as I figure because when I bet out, get raised and go heads up I wimp out. My player reading skills are at an adequate level and I err on the side of "weak". So, I give too much credit to the raisor and more often than I care to think, I go into a check/call mode and fold the river when I don't hit anything. Is check/call incorrect, or would you bet out on a turn brick going heads up, out of position?


BTW, I totally agree that betting a real hand and a drawing hand is the best way to make it hard to read. Problem is that when I run cold, man I run cold. So, over the course of say 300 hands in an evening, I may get 5-7 real hands. Last night was a prime example. I still haven't figured out a good way to work through this. I think I'm learning though as last night my loses were about 5BB. Basically, new found approach is called "patience".

Is check/call incorrect, or would you bet out on a turn brick going heads up, out of position?


You can try to keep randomizing. Since you're playing online, keep notes about your own play. When you encounter this heads-up situation, use three different plays.


Play 1: check/call the turn

Play 2: bet the turn

Play 3: check/raise the turn and bet the river (even in those situations where you miss your flush)


The next time you encounter this situation, use Play 2. The time after that use Play 3. Then Play 1, Play 2, Play 3, Play 1, etc. Keep a running list.


I've never played online for real money so I don't know if this would be a major hassle to keep track of. But, if it isn't, it should work.


Of course, if you have a specific read, you can adjust your strategy. If you are sure your opponent is raising for a free card with a smaller flush draw than your AdTd, then you can pump it heads-up since he's a huge dog.