GuyOnTilt Playing Scared Poker : 86s on the Button

[GuyOnTilt]

I watched a scary movie tonight. Then I decided to play a little poker, but since my nerves were a bit on edge, I sat down at a 5/10 table on Empire. I only played 2 orbits before I realized I was really tired and wanted to sleep more than I wanted to play, but I had a hand that felt weird.

We're 10-handed. Two players fold and EMP limps loose/passive fish limps in. A seemingly decent ABC MP limps, the CO limps, and I limp on the Button with 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. The SB (who I'm pretty sure is a 2+2'er, and a decent one at that) raises, BB folds, and we all call. 5 to the flop for 11 SB's.

Flop comes: J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

SB bets, EMP calls, MP calls, CO folds, I call. 4 to the turn for 7.3 BB's.

Turn comes: J /images/graemlins/spade.gif[J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif]

SB bets, EMP folds, MP raises. I call, SB calls. 3 to the river for 13.3 BB's.

River comes: T /images/graemlins/spade.gif[J /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif]

SB checks, MP bets, I call.

Laugh at the calling station.

GoT

[daveymck]

I dont play 5/10 so not sure how valid this is.

But my thoughts you have to raise the flop, you are more than likely ahead unless somone tells you otherwise and it should give you control of the hand at the very least, and should help you evaluate where you are better when the board pairs on the turn.

The MP player appears to have the jack or slow played 88 or 55, the SB appears to be either overplaying overcards or has an overpair, if he had any more he would have 3 bet the turn.

Your hand may have been good but I am expecting a 8's full house.

[chesspain]

Preflop: Why are you playing this trash? I could see if you were in a very loose-passive, fishy game with 5+ limpers before you, but you only have three limpers before you, with at least one of them being a decent player. Go to bed!

Flop: Fine

Turn: Since you described MP as a "seeminly decent ABC player," I imagine that this second Jack helped him significantly for him to raise a PF raiser with you still left to act behind him. In other words, I think it is much more likely that he has Jx than it is that he is now semi-bluffing with a flush draw, since there are few to no logical hands an ABC player would have that would contain two spades yet would have encouraged him to call the flop bet against an SB PF raiser. If you coldcall this bet it can only be so that you can try to hit your flush, since hitting two-pair or trip 8s will likely make you a nice, second best hand.

River: UGH! You hit your flush, and you now imagine that he must have JT? I think that QJ, KJ, or even AJ are as likely, and all will pay you off if you raise. Indeed, if he was too afraid to raise the flop with JT it does not mean that he would have been braver with any of the above holdings, especially if he didn't want to go to war with what he was afraid was likely JJ/QQ/KK/AA. Furthermore, if he had 55 or 88 and waited until the turn to pop it, then good for him. Consequently, the only reason to call would be to try to collect the one bet from SB's overpair without risking another BB.

[Luke]

Preflop: Why are you playing this trash? I could see if you were in a very loose-passive, fishy game with 5+ limpers before you, but you only have three limpers before you, with at least one of them being a decent player. Go to bed!

Folding 86s on the button after 3 limpers is a muck for you in this game, chesspain? Really? To me it's an easy limp. You have position, a mulitway pot, a hand that plays well multiway, very little chance of it being raised behind you - need I say more.

A little while back Clark commented on a hand where the player mucked 75s from the CO after 2 limpers and said something to the effect of if you're going to fold there, why even bother playing. Guy's game conditions might be a little tougher but he's got a better hand, better position, an extra limper and less chance of it getting raised behind him.

Easy limp for me.

Luke

[josie_wales]

Hey Strongbad,

PREFLOP: I am surprised to see you call with this...Is it because you are at about 1/2 your standard limit and figured...'what the heck, Im tired and I'll play this and hit the sack"?

FLOP: You've hit 2nd pair weak kicker, and a backdoor straight and flush draw. Not great, but tough to get out now, which is why this hand I would have folded PF. I would consider raising to see how much people like their hands and because you have several ways to improve your hand/draw.

TURN: So now you got your flush draw and are in for the duration. The raise on the flop MAY have given a free card here....maybe not with the board pairing.

You have to call 2 BB and there is a 10BB pot at the time. So you are calling 2-cold at 5-1 odds to hit a flush that is about 4-1 to get there.

RIVER: You make your hand and dont raise? Did you put the decent MP 'abc player' on limping after two limpers in MP with JT? That is about all that I can see (save flush over flush that beats you).

I'd raise.

This is one of the reasons that I would stay away from this hand in this situation. However, as a much better post-flop player, I can see you playing it.

However, I can also imagine what your response would be to someone else that posted this same hand.

Hope I'm not too far off base.

JW

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
But my thoughts you have to raise the flop, you are more than likely ahead unless somone tells you otherwise and it should give you control of the hand at the very least, and should help you evaluate where you are better when the board pairs on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

What makes you think GoT is ahead? He has a suspected 2+2er who raised from the SB, and on this flop a suspected "decent ABC player" just called a flop bet from the PR raiser. All GoT has is a small piece of this board. I'm guessing that his plan was to call the flop, and then toss his hand on the turn if he failed to improve.

In addition, I can't tell if you think GoT should have raised the river or not. I'm not going to be so quick to put MP on 88 or 55, when I think that hands like QJ, KJ, or AJ are more likely (suited or unsuited). The only reason to call is to try to collect a bet from SB's overpair without risking another BB.

[Homer]

This hand is fairly routine. The only questionable decision is the river.

Overcalling the river is the best play in this situation. If you call, you are all but guaranteed to get an overcall from SB's overpair, whereas if you raise, he will almost definitely fold and you open yourself up to a possible three-bet from MP, while doing nothing to give yourself an opportunity for additional profit.

-- Homer

[Luke]

Guy,

I pretty much like it on all streets.

The only street I question is the river.

The overcall ain't that bad because you entice the SB to call with his likely overpair and don't risk a reraise from the MP if he holds something like 88, 55 or JT. I guess my problem with this call is that the SB (a good 2+2er) will probably let go of a hand like KK once the flush gets there and MP continues to bring heat and you are calling. Does the SB know that you're you (GOT - 2+2er)? Your call might be enough incentive for him to fold on the river, figuring you for a hand like QJ or the made flush.

Just my thoughts.

Luke

[colgin]

Pre-flop and flop seems fine. I think it is close on the turn whether you should call 2 bets but I would lean towards folding here. You said that SB was likely a 2+2er so you can't assume he will cold call behind you here like an ordinary calling station. Thus, your odds are not as good here as if you were at a table full of calling stations. Getting about 5:1 on your call seems right but you are drawing nowhere near the nuts here and if you make your hand you won't be able to play it stringly. I vote for fold. Since you didn't I think just calling on the river was correct.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Why are you playing this trash? I could see if you were in a very loose-passive, fishy game with 5+ limpers before you, but you only have three limpers before you, with at least one of them being a decent player. Go to bed!

Folding 86s on the button after 3 limpers is a muck for you in this game, chesspain? Really? To me it's an easy limp. You have position, a mulitway pot, a hand that plays well multiway, very little chance of it being raised behind you - need I say more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Firstly, I like to see more than three limpers ahead of me from the button before I call it a "multiway pot." Secondly, it is really a stretch to say that 86s "plays well multiway." I'ld say it "mucks well on the flop."




[ QUOTE ]
A little while back Clark commented on a hand where the player mucked 75s from the CO after 2 limpers and said something to the effect of if you're going to fold there, why even bother playing. Guy's game conditions might be a little tougher but he's got a better hand, better position, an extra limper and less chance of it getting raised behind him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, Clark is fairly LAG, and GoT has already made it known that he generally plays much tighter than the LAG, 2+2, Vegas boys.

[Homer]

Preflop: Why are you playing this trash? I could see if you were in a very loose-passive, fishy game with 5+ limpers before you, but you only have three limpers before you, with at least one of them being a decent player. Go to bed!

86s is profitable from the CO after two limpers, assuming you have decent postflop skills. I'd go as low as 75s here, and some of the best players might go as low as 64s.

Turn: Since you described MP as a "seeminly decent ABC player," I imagine that this second Jack helped him significantly for him to raise a PF raiser with you still left to act behind him. In other words, I think it is much more likely that he has Jx than it is that he is now semi-bluffing with a flush draw, since there are few to no logical hands an ABC player would have that would contain two spades yet would have encouraged him to call the flop bet against an SB PF raiser. If you coldcall this bet it can only be so that you can try to hit your flush, since hitting two-pair or trip 8s will likely make you a nice, second best hand.

No question he's playing for the flush only here. Note that on a JJ8x board, a 6 does nothing for GOT's 86. He still has J's and 8's with a 6 kicker. Also, an 8 does not change anything unless MP is semi-bluffing and SB has an overpair.

River: UGH! You hit your flush, and you now imagine that he must have JT? I think that QJ, KJ, or even AJ are as likely, and all will pay you off if you raise. Indeed, if he was too afraid to raise the flop with JT it does not mean that he would have been braver with any of the above holdings, especially if he didn't want to go to war with what he was afraid was likely JJ/QQ/KK/AA. Furthermore, if he had 55 or 88 and waited until the turn to pop it, then good for him. Consequently, I think you have a clear raise here, although you could probably fold to a reraise (although I'ld likely call a reraise anyway). The only reason to call would be to try to collect the one bet from SB's overpair without risking another BB.

Your last sentence is the key. Without SB in the hand, raising the river is the best play. But when you have the opportunity to gain an additional bet from SB's overpair without having to risk an additional bet yourself, that is a huge factor.

-- Homer

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Without SB in the hand, raising the river is the best play. But when you have the opportunity to gain an additional bet from SB's overpair without having to risk an additional bet yourself, that is a huge factor.


[/ QUOTE ]

When I first responded to this thread, I did not realize that SB was still hanging around on the river. Consequently, I change my opinion of the river play from "raise" to "call," but only to try to get the overcall from SB.

[Homer]

When I first responded to this thread, I did not realize that SB was still hanging around on the river.

In your initial response you said:

Consequently, the only reason to call would be to try to collect the one bet from SB's overpair without risking another BB

That made me think you knew SB was still in the hand.

It's perfectly acceptable for you to still think raising is best. You could argue that the 2+2er won't overcall the river with his overpair often enough to make calling better than raising, or something like that.

-- Homer

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
When I first responded to this thread, I did not realize that SB was still hanging around on the river.

In your initial response you said:

Consequently, the only reason to call would be to try to collect the one bet from SB's overpair without risking another BB

That made me think you knew SB was still in the hand.

It's perfectly acceptable for you to still think raising is best. You could argue that the 2+2er won't overcall the river with his overpair often enough to make calling better than raising, or something like that.

-- Homer

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually edited my response to include that sentence, since my original response was strongly worded to claim that GoT had to raise there since I had not realized SB was still in the hand.

[Bob T.]

Why are you playing this trash?

'EMP limps, loose/passive fish limps in. A seemingly decent ABC MP limps, the CO limps...'

I have at least two limpers more than I would need to play this hand here. I think the question really should be, if you aren't playing this hand in this spot, why is that? You are playing against limpers, you have the best position, and if you make your hand, it will make you less readable in the future.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[Sarge85]

GoT -

I don't have anything to comment, other than I really enjoy reading about these "types" of hands. Seems like many of your posts (along with Clark, Major, JT, Homer, MS, Bob T, and Dynasty always end up in my favorites)

I face much more situations of what to do with these types of hands than I wonder what to do when I have AJ, AK, 88, etc...

Thanks for taking the time to put them up. - and thanks to the Pooh-Bah's, Carpal Tunnels, and other people who have such insight to respond. (You fellas are making me some money!)

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[slavic]

Homer - I can't see how the SB can overcall once GOT called, however I agree that on this board GOT can't really raise and there is still a chance that the SB will call.

If the /images/graemlins/spade.gif was anything other than a connector to the J I think a raise is probably a better play.

[elindauer]

Hi guy,

As usual, mistakes you made, if any, are small and open to debate.

I'd have seriously considered folding the turn, quite certain that I was up against a J. True, you are getting 5:1 to call, but there are several extenuating circumstances. First, you may be drawing dead. Second, you may make your flush but have your opponent improve to a full house or a surprise higher flush. Finally, the SB may 3-bet behind you (upon further reflection, this is not very likely, given typical 2+2 pf SB raising standards). All of these make your odds much worse than they currently appear. Note that any of the Ts Qs, Ks, or As could reasonably make a fullhouse for MP. It's interesting that your reasonably concealed flush also has some implied odds which make your odds more attractive... I'm having trouble weighing those two effects against each other. Now that I look at it more, calling may be best.

On the river, I'm confident you are ahead and MP is just betting his J unafraid of the backdoor flush. Granted, if you may be behind, and if so, you'll likely be 3-bet, so going for the overcall from EP who you clearly beat (baring a painful AKs) is reasonable. I'd probably raise here in the heat of battle, but having thought about it more, I don't think calling is far wrong, if at all. Note that your inability to get many bets on the river despite making your hand is further reason to consider folding the turn.


So, after all that, you played it fine. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Tosh]

Preflop: Standard limp.

Flop: I definitely call and take a peek at the turn, raising is a possiblity but I like a cheap turn here.

Turn: Again I call. Noway can you fold and your hand is not a 3 bet.

River: Only play that I think is questionable is the river call. If SB is a decent player he probably folds a big pair here, but would probably overcall. Having said that I would probably raise here though.

[GuyOnTilt]

Final Board: T /images/graemlins/spade.gif[J /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif]

SB checks, MP bets, I call, SB calls.

MP shows J /images/graemlins/heart.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
SB has K /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
I win with 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Homer pretty much summed this one up pretty well. The preflop limp should be standard. If you're mucking 86s from the Button after 3 limpers, you're giving up a profitable hand in LP as long as you're a solid postflop player. If the limpers are tough and aggressive postflop, then you can think about mucking it, but usually this hand is very playable here.

The flop was a no-brainer. I definitely do not want to raise here.

The Turn call is actually very, very borderline here. I think it may've actually been incorrect. I'm getting 10.3:2 on my call, not closing the action, but with very little chance of a 3-bet behind me. More likely, I'm going to be getting 11.3:2 after the SB calls, which he usually will here I think. But if the SB does call, I don't have 9 outs usually. If the MP player has trips, then that knocks outs one of my spades for sure. If the SB has an overpair, then I'm down to 7. And I may already be drawing dead to a flopped set. Of course, all these things are probabalistic, so in terms of effective outs, I'm somewhere between 7 and 8 probably, which makes my call very close. Close enough to think about folding anyway instead of just auto-calling.

The river is a little more clear-cut. SB most likely has either an overpair or high spades. MP most likely has KJ, QJ, JT, J9, 88, or 55. If SB has an overpair, he really should not be overcalling the river here. The turn call is alright if he sees the MP player as tricky enough to do this with a semi-bluff or a 2-pair hand, and me as aggressive enough where I would 3-bet with a hand that beats his. But on the river after I call, an overpair will simply not win this pot often enough to make an overcall profitable. However, given the string of call the river threads in the past month, I would expect almost all SS'ers and Micro players to overcall with AA, KK, and QQ on the river here (incorrectly, IMO). If the SB check-raises, I can fold when it comes back to me, easier if it's 2 bets rather than one, but I can still fold. If I raise, I'm going to knock out the SB unless he has me beat, and I'm going to risk a 3-bet from MP if he does indeed have a boat.

So as weird as it may look, calling the river probably the best play here, as long as the SB will call with an overpair more often than I have the MP beat. It would only need to be half as often if I planned on calling a 3-bet, which I would if it were HU on the river.

GoT