Wilson's Turbo TH

[Skeeter281]

I recently got TTH, and the competition isn't as tough as I hoped. Its pretty easy to bluff the computer, and pretty easy to read their hands from betting patterns. Even on the toughest level opposition. For example, they never raise for a free card, never semi-bluff draws, little to no checkraising, etc. Is there away to make it harder, maybe make all opponents super aggressive? By playing more aggressive than the computer settings, the advisor isn't hard to beat even on the toughest level. Any advice on how to get more out of the software? Thanks in advance.

[uuDevil]

Under Game Setup->Toughness of Computer Players, check various tabs to make sure appropriate options are checked. For instance, "All profiles vary their style," and "All profiles make moves," etc.

Also, under Game Setup-Modify Game Settings, make sure "Check raising is allowed" is checked.

Also try changing lineups--load the "tough.lup" lineup.

If this doesn't help, play real people-- they're tricky bastards. And winning real money is more fun anyway....

Good luck. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[imago]

uuDevil - you seem knowledgable about TTH. I got mine about 1 month ago and while I've had some fun and run some simple simulations I am not clear at all on some things. To wit:
1. Repeatable dealer code - by setting this at any random
number vs. any other random number what am I accompishing?
What is its true function and how best to utilize it?
2. I want to run simulations using various starting hands in all positions against various lineups. Will the cards dealt, other than the ones I am testing, be random?
Will the results be useful, do you think?
Thanks,
imago :)

[Dov]

A repeatable dealer code allows you to play the exact same shuffle in different ways. All it does is shuffle the cards the same way for each code.

You want to stack the deck for your second problem. Whether or not it is useful depends on how you construct your experiment.

Good Luck.

[uuDevil]

imago,

I probably won't give you a better answer than Dov, but it will be longer. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Although I have played with TTH, I am no expert, so keep that in mind.

[ QUOTE ]
1. Repeatable dealer code - by setting this at any random number vs. any other random number what am I accompishing? What is its true function and how best to utilize it?

[/ QUOTE ]
The "deal code" is just a label. It is like a variable name in a computer program-- you pick a name (actually a number in this case) and assign it a value. In TTH the deal code "value" is determined by running a simulation with an assigned deal code number. If you run a subsequent simulation using this same deal code number, the cards will come out in the same order for the second simulation as they did in the first. This allows you to do simulations under identical conditions while you alter some other variable of interest--like replacing a rock profile with a maniac.

Note that a repeatable deal is different from "stacking the deck," where you are actually forcing the cards to come as you designate, rather than randomly. (These options can be used together, but it isn't clear to me what the results would be in some cases. If you speciify a previously assigned deal code AND a stacked deck in the same simulation, the stacked cards take precedence, but I'm not sure how this affects the rest of the deal. It looks to me like the program still tries to "repeat the deal," but I don't know what it does if your stacked cards were supposed to be dealt to a different player.)

[ QUOTE ]
2. I want to run simulations using various starting hands in all positions against various lineups. Will the cards dealt, other than the ones I am testing, be random?Will the results be useful, do you think?

[/ QUOTE ]
The remaining cards should be random-- from the tip of the day list:

HOW TO STACK THE DECK
1. On the Main Menu (top of the screen) point to "Game Setup" and click.
2. Point to "Stack the deck..." and click.
3. In the upper left part of the screen, point to "Change" and click.
4. For each card you want to stack, point to the card and drag it to the spot desired then release the mouse button. You can give cards to any player(s) and/or the board. The remainder of the cards will be dealt randomly.
5. Click "Done" twice to get back to the green table.

If you are really interested in this topic, you may want to buy TTH's "Mike Gilbert's Insider's Tips" booklet ($6.95), which discusses testing in detail.

I think poker simulations can be useful, although some authorities (e.g. Mason Malmuth) dismiss them. I don't have Mason's poker knowledge, of course, and certainly all simulation results need to be evaluated critcally. However, I do (non-poker) simulations of various sorts and they are frequently worthwhile, even when they give results I know are wrong. As the great American mathmatician/computer scientist Richard Hamming said, "The purpose of computing is insight, not numbers."

FYI, Abdul Jalib has posted some simulation results here:
http://www.posev.com/poker/holdem/sim/index.html

Please post any interesting results-- they might stimulate some debate. Anyway, good luck. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Devil:

[ QUOTE ]
I think poker simulations can be useful, although some authorities (e.g. Mason Malmuth) dismiss them.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's just not true. In SCSFAP we have a whole appendix devoted to computer simulations.

Best wishes,
Mason

[The WET BEAVER]

If you need expererience with poker, instead of sending in $96.45, you should just buy-in to an online micro-limit game. That way you will get experience against live people.

You might want to sell TTH on e-bay. I've seen some used S&M books being auctioned for the face value.

[uuDevil]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think poker simulations can be useful, although some authorities (e.g. Mason Malmuth) dismiss them.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's just not true. In SCSFAP we have a whole appendix devoted to computer simulations.

[/ QUOTE ]
Apologies! /images/graemlins/blush.gif

My statement is too broad. Maybe lapses like this explain why I can't seem to finish my Ph.D. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Please correct me if this is also untrue, but I should have said:

I think <font color="red">TTH</font> simulations can be useful, although some authorities (e.g. Mason Malmuth) dismiss them.

I have read, enjoyed, and learned from your books. Those I haven't yet read, including SCSFAP, are on my list. When I talk about you behind your back, it is often to recommend a book.

--uuDevil

[astroglide]

what is scsfap?

[webiggy]

[ QUOTE ]
what is scsfap?

[/ QUOTE ]

Seven card stud for..,

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Devil:

[ QUOTE ]
I think TTH simulations can be useful, although some authorities (e.g. Mason Malmuth) dismiss them.


[/ QUOTE ]

Now that's more like it.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Lunamondo]

They never raise for a free card is perhaps a good point, but there are profiles and situations that do raise and check-raise with less than a top pair, though they do not rate to take a free card.

The profiles can be made custom, though at shorthanded games one might need to save the lineup first before making it custom (that might avoid the sh-bug).

[waynethetrain]

Load the "Tough" line up. Take IGOR Inc out of seat 8 and put Bret Maverick in (he is much tougher). Save that profile and and set up the game so the position of the players varies each time you play. Those few moves will definitely make the game tougher.

You might also want to run some simulations using other players in an attempt to find other players that will make it tougher for you.

There is supposedly another version coming out before year end. Hopefully there will be more tough players and lineups.

IMHO, TTH is an indespensible learning tool for beginners and intermediates (at a minimum). It has supplemented my book knowledge and allowed me to move forward against reasonable quality opponents without putting money at risk. I believe playing in micro limits is a waste of time if you eventually want to move up to low/mid limits. Books only take you so far amd micro is a waste. IMHO, you will learn way more and much faster from TTH practice and simulations etc...

[imago]

WaynetheTrain,
Thanks for the tips, they will certainly come in
handy! /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[waynethetrain]

&gt;Load the "Tough" line up. Take IGOR Inc out of seat 8 and put Bret Maverick in (he is much tougher). Save that profile and and set up the game so the position of the players varies each time you play. Those few moves will definitely make the game tougher. &lt;

Has anyone tried competing against this lineup as I suggested?

Anyone beating it steadily with a raked pot?

[imago]

Wayne,
Since I first posted I have played around a lot and
figured some things out; however, your idea makes a lot of
sense. Let me share what I've learned. I've set up a profile of my own and run some sims against different line-
ups. Two of them are variations of the Tough.LUP:

Seat# Lineup I Lineup II
1. Happy Bret
2. Lamont Nicely
3. Dr. Jekyll Edmund
4. Lash Gypsy
5. Bret Lash
6. Myopic Harry
7. Conan Tricky
8. Igor Lamont
9. Tricky DrJekyll
10. Me Me
Both lineups share 5 players; Bret,Lash, Tricky,Lamont and Dr.Jekyll. In lineup #1 my profile had a +$2.38/hand after the rake and lineup #2 had a +$2.68/hand after the rake. Sims were one million hand auto stop.
I have no idea at this point in time whether this is good, bad or indifferent; however, I extrapolated a live play scenario of 2 six hour session/day, 6 days/week, 50 weeks/year @ 25 hands hour = 90,000 hands/year = 42K-44K per year profit on average. This might be a living, but it ain't the big leagues!
I have also played games "live" against these lineups and do somewhat better, based on 2 minute/hand, although yesterday I followed the advisor exactly for 300 hands and lost $1047!!! against lineup #1. Of course, that is a limit format and I play no limit.
I have the tournament program also and play against "tough" competition. I use the WSOP structure(#6). I've played 17 of these and finished in the money 5 times and won it once(I wish I could do as well online!).
Anyway, if you would like you can email me directly at imago9999@sbcglobal.net. I am really starting to get a feel for the Turbo program and enjoy finding out how to do more things with it and sharing what I learn on my own, too.
Thanks for the heads-up,
imago

[Sully]

[ QUOTE ]
&gt;Load the "Tough" line up. Take IGOR Inc out of seat 8 and put Bret Maverick in (he is much tougher). Save that profile and and set up the game so the position of the players varies each time you play. Those few moves will definitely make the game tougher. &lt;

I've been using this lineup, and have played about 1,500 hands (not nearly enough for a true evaluation)...I set it at a 15/30 level, and am up a little over $1,100 with a $2 dealer toke (big spender). Thanks for the advice on the lineup change...I think it is much more challenging than the original "tough" lineup.

Also, FYI - I have played pretty close to the advisor guidelines, although it considers me a little too aggressive on the flop.

Thanks for the suggestions..

Has anyone tried competing against this lineup as I suggested?

Anyone beating it steadily with a raked pot?




[/ QUOTE ]

[Jive Dadson]

You sez, "...set up the game so the position of the players varies each time you play."

How do you do that?

Thankee.

[uuDevil]

[ QUOTE ]
You sez, "...set up the game so the position of the players varies each time you play."

How do you do that?


[/ QUOTE ]
I think the settings he's referring to are under Game Setup-&gt;Modify game settings-&gt;Play options:-&gt;Random seats for opponents (radio button). In the same section is an option to allow new computer players to come into the game.

[Nelly]

One thing I like to do is customize a profile to play a style I am working on (setting up new opening reqs or whatever) I then set that profile up as the advisor and play trying to apply that style with the advisor chastising me when I am "off-book".