They call me tighty-mcwhitey...

[spamuell]

Can anyone think of a better line than this?

TGC 1/2 10-handed. This is a hand from one of my logs so I don't have any player notes but it occured on my first orbit of the table so I don't think I had any reads. Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.

Pre-flop: Hero limps, EP2 limps, MP1 limps, CO limps, button limps, SB completes, BB checks. 7 to the flop for 7SB:

Flop: A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, EP2 bets, MP calls, CO folds, button folds, SB calls, BB calls, Hero folds

Now, this hand was a while ago, but I remember why I checked the flop. I had the following though process:

1. If I bet the flop, I'm very likely to get raised on a board like this. I don't know if I can call that raise with such a scary board, if I'm behind then I almost certainly don't have the usual 5 outs (only will if someone has JT) and I'll often be drawing dead. But betting the flop and folding to a raise would seem very weak, especially as someone could easily be raising a draw. I'll check and see what happens.

I also know why I folded here. My thought process was something like:

Great, it's been bet by my immediate left, now I can't checkraise unless it gets heads-up. Oh look, lots of callers. Do I want to be the fifth player putting money into the pot with a board like this? There are lots of limping hands that already have me drawing slim or dead, and even if I am ahead, I'm going to have to dodge many cards to win this hand and it will be expensive to find out whether I'm beat. I fold.

This line of thinking seems very weak-tight to me now. At the moment, I'm thinking a way to make the best of the situation might be to check-call the flop and then bet the turn and fold to a raise (at a typical sort of looseish and fairly passive 1/2 table).

Thoughts?

[TBone]

I may get burned for this one, but....

That flop is horrible. You have A/mediocre kicker. There's a possible flush and possible broadway out there with two cards to come, you're dodging all kinds of cards and could be drawing to very few outs if:

1) noone has a flush
2) noone has a str8
3) another diamond doesn't come
4) a K or Q doesn't come
5) you're not already outkicked
6) a J or T doesn't come

How often, even if you hit an 8 on the turn, might you be second best hand to a higher 2 pair, str8, or flush. I think folding here is fine.

Yours in tight-ness,

T

[StellarWind]

My thought process would be raise-or-checkfold on the flop. This hand is not going to improve. I don't want six people drawing for free while I play for a modest pot that will only get much bigger when someone gets a better hand. Hopefully a draw will raise on the back end and I can reraise.

If I were to play at all. But this is crazy and I'm out of here. My main point is that my flop check is final. I won't be thinking about whether to call a bet.

[mikeyKay]

i could be even tighter, but i think if its your first orbit, and you are UTG, and really dont have a read on the table, and dont know too much about the table texture, i think i would muck it preflop. but i guess most people have a pretty good idea of how the game is going to be played on a certain site reguardless of what table they sit at...but i still think i fold this pre flop, in that position, that early into the session. if you play it, i think you should bet it, and if raised or shown lots of aggression, then bail, your hand is not going to hold up.
-mike

[sthief09]

IMO this is a routine fold. you can't honestly believe you are ahead, and you have 2 outs to improve to a hand that might not even be winner. you checked to gain information, and when you got information, you correctly folded.

UTG this is an easy call. people who are able to play suited aces well can play them from anywhere in a loose game. and he just proved that he's able to play the hand well


of course you could always call for backdoor quad potential

[callingstation]

I would check fold on this flop. With 7 people, someone got to have some str8 or flush draw, or better ace, two pair, etc. And u r out of position, fold is ok.

ur call preflop is a little loose from UTG. But if u know others are coming, then a call is ok.

[jeffseib]

I think that Spamuell played this correctly as he had just sat down at table, but here is another way of thinking about it. Please let me know what you think.

Immediate pot odds: 11:1
Effective pot odds: about 5:1 (assuming one caller on turn and that spamuell will drop on river if hand does not improve and is bet into). If there are more than one caller, his effective odds improve. If he decides to go to the showdown, his effective odds are about 3:1.
Odds to improve with 5 outs with 2 cards to come: 3.9:1

He is up against a possible made flush or flush draw, straight (made or draw) or pair of A, J or T. Prob. no one has a set as no PF raise. That is a total of 21 effective outs (two Js, two Ts, 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gifs 4 Ks, 4 Qs). That is Spamuell is a 4:1 dog if no one has a made flush or a straight (in which case he is drawing nearly dead).

He is getting 5:1 effective pot odds (to his 3.9:1 odds), which makes a call here marginally profitable.

If he were to play this hand, he prob. should have called (especially since he is closing the betting in this round) and if a blank fell on the turn, call again for one bet (if raised, have to drop right there). On the river, if another blank falls and he is bet into, fold or raise (see TOP for good discussion of heads up on the end).

Another way to play this, is to raise the flop and drop if the turn is bet. He has top pair, lousy kicker, and should fold to any show of strength; a single bet on flop is not showing a lot of strenght. A reraise to his raise, is a show of strength and he can drop right there.

Again, this is not proper when you have just sat down and have no read on your opponents yet..

[symphonic]

I had a similar hand today. I called on the button with JTo. 6 to the flop. Flop comes ten high with 2 hearts. SB bets, all call (I didnt feel confident with my hand). Turn comes, rag, sb bets again, 3 callers (including myself). River comes, Ace of hearts, sb bets, utg calls, and I fold. My hand would've been good. I nearly kicked myself in the head (ok maybe not, i'm not that flexible), for that weak tight bullshit, should I of raised the flop? called the river?

[TBone]

For one thing, the hands are nowhere similar. The original post had a possible broadway straight and 3 of one suit. That aside, yes you should raise the flop. You need to get the Q, K, and A out if possible.

When the rag comes on the turn, you need to raise for the same reasons and the fact your hand could very well be good.

Had you raised the flop and/or turn, you could have had a better thought that your hand was good on the river.

T