Axo in the SB

[Guido]

I would like to know what you normally do with hands like A3o or A8o in the SB after:

1) 2 EP limpers?
2) 2 LP limpers?
3) 1 LP limper?
4) no limpers?
5) 5 limpers?

I know this isn't as simple as I just stated it but I'm struggling a bit. Most of the time I simply fold except when it's SH and the limpers are from LP. Please give me some more insight.

Thanks,

Guido

[mmanne]

I generally play 2/4 or 3/6 on Party, so I'll give my responses based on that (realizing that the different blind structure means a lot:
2 EP limpers = 2/4 call (3/6 fold)
2 LP limpers = call
1 LP limper = raise
no limpers = raise
5 limpers = call A3 at 2/4, fold all else

[Jezebel]

1) 2 EP limpers? <font color="blue"> call </font>
2) 2 LP limpers? <font color="blue"> call </font>
3) 1 LP limper? <font color="blue"> raise </font>
4) no limpers? <font color="blue"> raise, if we don't chop </font>
5) 5 limpers? <font color="blue"> usually fold </font>

[arkady]

this might be a silly question, but can you explain your reasoning for playing A3o at 2/4, but not at 3/6?

[mmanne]

The small blinds at 2/4 are half a bet, and at 3/6 they are one third of a bet. This accounts for throwing at lot more hands away at 3/6 in the small blind

[arkady]

ok i thought so, thank ya /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Guido]

Why fold with 5 limpers?

[Guido]

Is there no difference for you between EP or LP limpers?

[BIGRED]

Sorry to cut in, but I would also fold with many limpers because it's likely that one of the limpers has a better Ace than you. Even if you hit your Ace, you have to worry about your kicker.

[btspider]

Is there any situation where you would conceivably fold A6 or A7, but keep A3, A4, A5, or even A2 for the wheel potential? This could be from the SB or the BB (after a raise).

[el_grande]

1) Fold
2) Fold
3) Fold
4) Raise (chop in B&amp;M)
5) Fold

I guess I like playing suited cards in the SB.

I hate being first to act with just an Ace overcard heads up or against two players.

[Guido]

If it's not a blind steal I alsways fold Axo with X &gt;= T

Guido

[BugsBunny]

If it's not a blind steal I always fold Axo with X &gt;= T

I think you meant to say "If it's not a blind steal I always fold Axo with X &lt;= T". And if so that's too tight, especially from the SB - or when defending either blind against a probable steal.

ATo I won't get into here other than to say I'm showing a profit with it (small sample size) and I'll occasionally play it 4 off the button for an open-raise. This is obviously table dependent. But if you were to always fold ATo unless you were open-raising from either the CO or BT (plus blind plays) you wouldn't be giving up very much.

[Guido]

Not exactly, when somebody raises and I'm in the SB or BB and I don't think it's a blind steal I fold with Axo with X &lt;= T. If I do think it's a blind steal I re-raise in the SB with hands above A7o. In the BB I sometimes call, sometimes 3-bet.

I'm slowly adding some more hands to my arsenal. When I bought pokertracker about half a year ago I found out that I was losing with AJo, ATo, KJo and QJo. I played these hands quite a lot. I dropped ATo, KJo and QJ for a while and had a good look at AJo. What did I do wrong? Most of the time I just stayed to long. Perhaps my sample size was too small too but at least I knew what I did wrong. Hands like KJo and ATo I played in the wrong situations. Now I'm a lot better and have a better feeling about when to play them. think I I'm just starting to play a couple of more hands like KJo and ATo. And all BB/Hands are positive out of the blinds now.

Thanks,

Guido

[ropey]

[ QUOTE ]
If I do think it's a blind steal I re-raise in the SB with hands above A7o. In the BB I sometimes call, sometimes 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to ask why it takes a good hand to move somebody off of a blind steal. What is wrong with an A6o if you are reraising to catch somebody who is stealing. Further, what is wrong with a 72o if you are catching somebody on a blind steal. The reality is, your ace (or other cards) means nothing if you are catching somebody on a blind steal.

-ropey

[Guido]

[ QUOTE ]
What is wrong with an A6o if you are reraising to catch somebody who is stealing.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nothing, but I don't feel that comfortable with these hands so I draw the line at a 7.

[ QUOTE ]
The reality is, your ace (or other cards) means nothing if you are catching somebody on a blind steal.


[/ QUOTE ]
I do want to win, not only want to catch him. Ever heard of high card?

Guido

[ropey]

[ QUOTE ]
Nothing, but I don't feel that comfortable with these hands so I draw the line at a 7.

[/ QUOTE ]
I understand that you feel all warm and cozy with your big Ace and medium kicker...but you need to realize that your cards don't matter when you are playing the player like this.

[ QUOTE ]
I do want to win, not only want to catch him. Ever heard of high card?

[/ QUOTE ]
If he calls you down after all of this, your Ace high isn't any good...he either wasn't stealing in the first place, or has caught something with his junk along the way...Either way, your Ace means nothing.

-ropey

[Schmed]

1. call
2.call
3.raise
4.raise
5. call

The thing you need to understand when you are playing a hand like this is that your top pair may be no good. For the .25 BB that you are investing the possibility of making a big hand and winning a big pot is just too great. You make aces up and you're golden because the guy that limped in the EP with Aj or A10 will pay you off and then some if he is an agg player.

With one LP limper my thinking is I have the best hand. That limper could have any range of hands. He didn't raise, first one in, from a late position, that says to me K10, 67s, KJ maybe if he's weak tight, some kind of hand like that. If he has a clue and has any decent ace he's coming in for a raise. I want him and I, heads up, on the flop. I am pretty much betting anything that hits. I would 3 bet any ace that hit and then come out firing on the turn. If capped you're probably dead and ya know...best laid plans...... /images/graemlins/grin.gif At that point there is just too much money to lay down....have to pay off, in addition to the fact that for one bet on the turn you're getting odds to draw to your 3 outter....I think /images/graemlins/blush.gif

With no limpers you raise because the odds are pretty good you have the best hand.....it's value baby......take the BB post and ride for free this time...... In a B&amp;M you may get friendly and chop but that's on you......

Situation 5 there is just too much money and too many callers. If it were suited I would be thinking about a raise as a change of pace. That way now you have 5 people thinking...."whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat...." when you catch your flush with your A6s.

I think when you see what Ed Miller and Clark are talking about is opening up your game and not being so predictible. Predictible is going to work at the 6-12, 3-6 level in the B&amp;M's. People are there for so many different reasons that have nothing to do with winning poker that predicitble will keep you in a pretty nice profit range. As you move up and the pots become more and more 3-way, you, the blind, and one limper, predictible players are break even players at best.

[Guido]

[ QUOTE ]
but you need to realize that your cards don't matter when you are playing the player like this.


[/ QUOTE ]
I don't agree, cards do matter. If not then it's just luck and being agressive and I don't think that's all you need.

[ QUOTE ]
he either wasn't stealing in the first place, or has caught something with his junk along the way...Either way, your Ace means nothing.


[/ QUOTE ]
If he was stealing I can still win with a high card. So I don't think an ace means nothing.

When he catches something with his junk and I catch something with my junk I can still loose because my junk is even worse. Suppose he raises with J7o and you call with 72o you have only 3 outs. I just don't think an ace means nothing don't know if that is nonsense or not.

Guido

[Schmed]

In your example, (you have 72o he has j7o and is stealing), if you are aggressive preflop and flop and he doesn't hit he will lay it down because he was stealing. He hits his jack you're screwed even with your A7o.

I mean how do you play against a stealer..check call through the river because you have the A7?????? No chance.....you have to kick him where he's trying to kick you.

[Guido]

I know I have to defend sometimes but don't your cards matter? Is 72o ok to defend with? Perhaps this wasn't a good example but suppose he raises with K8o and you defend with 72o. Well never mind, I don't understand.

Guido

[ropey]

The point is that you don't need to hit your hand to take somebody off of a steal, and so your cards really don't matter.

[Schmed]

72o is not a defend hand and it was the extreme example.

Like ropey said the point is if you know the guy is stealing you can push him off with anything . You don't need to make a hand to win that pot. I have reraised steal raisers with as little as q8s,22, j10, not hit bet like I had aces and put an end to their stealing. It's not always going to work and you're going to get snapped off every now and then yourself but it puts them on alert and it usually pacifies their desire to raise your blind every time.

The key here is STEAL RAISE. You know he's stealing. It's not always a steal just because someone folded to a LP player and he raised. You have to have a good feel for how the player plays.