Folding QQ in NL Tourney

[Julia1968]

My brother and I have a difference of opinion on QQ. One of us feels that it is better to bet stronger PF to have less challengers, while the other feels you want more people in the pot in NL tourneys (obviously this question does not apply to KK or AA)

So ...what do you all think? What is the *ideal* situation to have QQ? What is the situation you want to avoid with QQ?

Under what circumstances, if any, would you fold QQ PF? Post flop? Turn? River?

Thanks

[heyrocker]

[ QUOTE ]
One of us feels that it is better to bet stronger PF to have less challengers

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel this person is correct, especially in the KK and QQ instances but even in the AA instance. Who wants to limp or minraise with KK, see an ace on the flop and have to fold (or even worse lose) to an A8 who would have dropped it if you had bet harder? or KQ who flops two pair? Big pocket pairs are very good starting hands but they are also quite vulnerable, and the more people in the more vulnerable they are.

[William]

I fully agree with Heyrocker.
I know that many (especially beginners) feel that having a big PP is the opportunity to win a big pot against many opponents, but this is a VERY wrong concept. At a full table, your AA becomes a dog against 4 opponents, and a slight favourite against 3. Much worse of course the lower your PP is.

The rule is very simple, you ALLWAYS want to isolate a player when holding a big PP and the lower your PP is, the higher the price your opponent should pay to get involved in the pot.

Big PP can be very expensive cards when not played properly.
Don't be afraid of everybody folding to your raise, it's better to win a small pot than to lose a big one.

Remember that you can only win big pots when your cards are in danger (or the other players suck)

Take care,
William

[Julia1968]

Thank you for the feedback...Now...in what circumstances would you fold QQ PF?

[heyrocker]

I would be extremely hard pressed to think of a single situation where I can get rid of QQ preflop. Like if three people were all in in front of me, I'd be thinking about it. I'll pretty much try to get as much of my money as possible at this point though. QQ is my cutoff for this, I feel that at JJ this point becomes a lot less true. JJ and TT can be really tough hands to play.

[NotMitch]

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you for the feedback...Now...in what circumstances would you fold QQ PF?

[/ QUOTE ]

For me it would be rare. Most that I can think of would have to involve a known very tight opponent and being on the bubble.

[heyrocker]

[ QUOTE ]
The rule is very simple, you ALLWAYS want to isolate a player when holding a big PP and the lower your PP is, the higher the price your opponent should pay to get involved in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

The one point I would make here is that with lower PP at early levels in a NL SNG I don't think of it as a hand I'm trying to win with as it stands. I'm looking to make a set or bail. So with any pair like 99 or less, I'll just call in and see what the flop brings me. As you get shorthanded, these become a lot more playable on their own, but thats a whole other issue.

[BigEndian]

I think it's a mix of the two points you make. You want to raise with QQ, but you do so because you invite all comers at the higher price. You have a great hand and if 9 players want to see the flop for a big raise (assuming random hands) then you are getting the best of it.

Limping with QQ PF has little value in a full table. You aren't charging people to play inferior hands. This should be obvious.

I notice a mix of responses from people. One the one hand, the sentiment is that you want as few people as possible in the pot with QQ. On the other, is that there are very few scenarios where you fold QQ.

Sure, we'd all feel better if we isolated an all-in with QQ. But it's weak thinking to believe you're raising PF with QQ to chase weak A's and K's from the pot. You're raising because you have them over a barrel and want them to call at the higher price.

- Jim

[VarlosZ]

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you for the feedback...Now...in what circumstances would you fold QQ PF?

[/ QUOTE ]
I've done it before (and posted about it over in the Multi-Table Tournaments forum).

The first few hands of a $30 PartyPoker Multi. I get QQ one off the button (about 970 in chips). UTG (2100 in chips) makes a minimum raise to 30, it folds around to me. I make it 100 to go, the BB calls, UTG goes all-in.

He could have something like JJ if he's extremely aggressive, but I have to give him credit for AA, KK, or AK, and I don't like any of those hands (especially early in a tournament where I think I'm one of the better players). I fold.

[Tosh]

You do need to be able to release queens should the situation demand it, and these situations will come up.

[triplc]

I will release queens early in a SnG when I think I'm up against a coinflip (AK or AKs) or worse (KK or AA). Trouble is, it's often tough to put someone on a hand like this in the lower limit SnGs because people love to go all-in with Ax, 33, JTs, etc.

The other night I had QQ 2 hands into a 10+1 SnG on Stars. UTG min raises, I raise to 100, all fold and he pushes in. I called and he had AKs. He gets his flush and I'm out a few hands later. I watched this table for a while and I wished I'd simply folded and waited for a better spot, because I probably could have done some damage. QQ is a hard hand to get away from. But I always play it aggressively until I get a clear indication that I shouldn't (and even then I sometimes still do...and end up 8th /images/graemlins/smile.gif).

CCC

[tripdad]

AA is NEVER a "dog". the one w/AA is ALWAYS favored to win preflop.

i think what you mean is that it is -EV when 4 or more are in, and +EV when 3 or less are in. there is a big difference there. however, even that assumption is wrong because that is only true if the model assumes noone folds, ie...no fold'em hold'em.

cheers!

[Prickly Pete]

Could you please explain how AA is -EV with 4 others in? What am I missing here?

[Nottom]

I was in a tourney the other day when a player claimed to have folded QQ ... I believed him and figured it was probably the right decision during the hand.

It was a satalite tourney on stars with about 100 players left and 27 getting seats. The 2nd biggest stack opens with a moderate raise to 3k or so from UTG and its folded to the big stack (These 2 have by far the most chips at the table prolly around 40K and 55K with avg stack around 15K) who makes it about 15K to go. Folded back to UTG who raises all-in.

Big stack thinks and thinks and lays it down and says QQ. UTG shows KK.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
Could you please explain how AA is -EV with 4 others in? What am I missing here?

[/ QUOTE ]

In terms of chips its absolutely +EV, in a ring game you would usually love to be in this situation. the problem with a tourney is that you are putting you entire tourney on the line if you lose.

Against multiple stacks that have you covered even though you are still the favorite, you will lose and be out of the tourney more often than you win a giant pot. Since survival is usually more important than winning chips, you would prefer to stay out of this sitution.

[coolhandluke]

okay, maybe it's because I'm too new to poker, and have to much math in my background, but I don't see where I'd fold these things pre-flop, even if someone went all in.

In my mind, here's why,
What hands are you worried about?
AA
KK
and
AKs is about a push

He has <1% chance to have either AA or KK and .3 percent chance to have AKs
Therefore, he has a <1% chance to be better than you, and a .3% chance to be basically even (AKs,)
How do you fold to someone with less than 1% chance of holding better cards?

again, i'm long on math skills, short on poker skills, can someone explain this to me?

[Tosh]

Your logic is incredibly flawed. You are basically saying that there is equal chance he has pushed with 27o as AA.

[coolhandluke]

I understand your point, but, the fact that he is much more likely to go in with KK doesn't change the fact that he is only going to have it less than 1% of the time.

[Che]

[ QUOTE ]
He has <1% chance to have either AA or KK and .3 percent chance to have AKs
Therefore, he has a <1% chance to be better than you, and a .3% chance to be basically even (AKs,)
How do you fold to someone with less than 1% chance of holding better cards?

[/ QUOTE ]

To expand on what Tosh said, these percentages assume that the opponent has two random cards. Most opponents do not push all their chips in with random cards.

You have to consider the probability that the opponent has you beat relative to the range of hands they will go allin with. QQ is a winner against most players' ranges of allin hands, but there are times you would fold QQ.

You fold QQ to an allin in situations like this:

1. Opponent will only push in with AA-JJ, AK. (Two hands that dominate you, one you're a 5:4 favorite, one you dominate, plus microscopic chance of tie with QQ.)
...AND...
2. Your stack size relative to the # of chips in the pot is still large. (If you only have to call 1000 to win 3000, you might call even if you're sure opponent has AA-JJ or AK.) In other words, sometimes the pot odds justify the call even when the chances of AA/KK are fairly high.

Other factors (like how close you are to the bubble) also come into play.

So, folding QQ preflop should be done VERY rarely, but saying the opponent has <1% chance of dominating you is not accurate unless the opponent is desperately short-stacked or a total moron.

[Tosh]

Again saying that he has <1% of having it is wrong. Yes before the hand thats the chance he's dealt it but he does not have random cards to raise all in. Your calculation is only correct if he raises all-in without looking at his cards.

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you for the feedback...Now...in what circumstances would you fold QQ PF?

[/ QUOTE ]

Given your standard sit-n-go setup (fairly fast moving blinds, fairly shallow chips), it is quite rare for me to release QQ preflop. The only time I would think about it is if there were multiple all-ins (or a big raise followed by an all-in) before me and at least one of them could either bust me or nearly bust me. Even then, I'd need a solid read on the 2nd all-in as needing JJ-AA or AK to do this.

If there are three raisers (i.e. raise, all-in, all-in), this fold becomes easier, especially if the 3rd one is a non-insane player.

Most of the time though, when you end up with QQ v/KK-AA, you're just going to end up losing most of your chips. Fortunately, this doesn't happen very often, and just as often as it does, you'll be the one with KK or AA.

In a sit-n-go or online multi, I don't think I would ever release QQ preflop against a single player. In a big, deep money tournament (multiple days, slow blinds, and huge starting stacks, I might be able to get away if my opponent's betting is just clubbing me over the head with "I have AA" (much like Sklansky's "when to lay down KK" example in TPFAP).

In sit-n-go and online multi play though, I don't think you are giving up too much if you never lay down QQ preflop.

[CrisBrown]

Hi Julia,

[ QUOTE ]
Under what circumstances, if any, would you fold QQ PF? Post flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

This question helps you to answer the rest of your post. Are you in a situation where you feel you'd have to fold to a reraise? If so, then don't raise with QQ.

Generally, this happens when you're in EP and there are skilled, aggressive, bigger stacks behind you. In this situation, I'd be more likely to limp, planning to call a reasonable raise, but not a raise and a reraise. Because I'm out of position, and because about 1/3 of the time an Ace or King will hit on the flop, I don't want to get too brazen with QQ in this situation.

Conversely, I would almost never fold QQ on the button -- I'd have to see two all-ins ahead of me and respect one or both players -- and I'll usually reraise from here. About the only time I wouldn't were if it was a community pot, in which case I'd limp behind the herd and hope to spike a set or pick up a raggy flop.

In short, like anything else, it's situational. Yes, you'd rather play QQ heads-up, as that gives you the best equity for a big pair. But when the situation calls for caution, or offers big implied odds, I'll play QQ like a small pair.

Cris

[William]

Generally, this happens when you're in EP and there are skilled, aggressive, bigger stacks behind you. In this situation, I'd be more likely to limp, planning to call a reasonable raise, but not a raise and a reraise. Because I'm out of position, and because about 1/3 of the time an Ace or King will hit on the flop, I don't want to get too brazen with QQ in this situation.

Nope, I think it is always better to put a big raise in EP. if you get reraised, then you have to evaluate.
By only limping, you decrease the value of what is a very good hand.

About the only time I wouldn't were if it was a community pot, in which case I'd limp behind the herd and hope to spike a set or pick up a raggy flop.

Nope again. This is the spot to get very agressive. a big raise here usually takes down the pot right there. Be assured that several limpers are not going to call your raise (all-in is probably the best here) so in the worst/best case, you will be against 1/2 players.

QQ is a very good hand. The best way to play it is by far being agressive, and that means more than a 3xBB bet.
Just limping is a horrible play.

Take care,
William

[CrisBrown]

Hi William,

I respect your thoughts, and I agree that, especially for a novice, QQ should be played aggressively. I sometimes get caught up in thinking "Okay, with what hands would my usual opponents reraise and push vs. a raise from UTG?" For my usual opponents, I'm at best a coin flip, and very possibly dominated by a higher pair. And early on, I don't want to take those risks from out of position.

The flip side of that advice, though, is that you can't get married to QQ just because you've raised pre-flop. If an Ace or King falls on the flop, and an opponent bets hard at it, you're probably better off laying down QQ. And I guess that's where my advice was headed. If you're not careful, QQ is a hand that will win a small pot or lose a big one.

Cris

[Simon Diamond]

If you're not careful, QQ is a hand that will win a small pot or lose a big one.

That is my experience of Queens. How often do you end up coming unstuck in tourneys with Q-Q?

Simon

[CrisBrown]

Hi Simon,

[ QUOTE ]
That is my experience of Queens. How often do you end up coming unstuck in tourneys with Q-Q?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. QQ is a surprisingly difficult hand to play, enough so that Doyle Brunson has a separate section for it in SUPER SYSTEMS. Yes, it's a strong hand, and I'd rather play it heads-up. But unless the money is shallow, I don't like to push in pre-flop with QQ.

So let's say the money is fairly deep -- e.g.: first round of a SNG -- and I think I'll face one of two choices: (a) a multi-way pot; or, (b) pushing in pre-flop. I would take the multi-way pot and see where I stand on the flop, rather than putting my entire SNG on QQ in the first round or two.

For a new player, though, I might well recommend pushing in, and I understand and respect the other posters' views in recommending that.

The difference is that I know I will get better opportunities to push my chips in than with QQ in the first couple of rounds. I may not get a better starting hand in the entire SNG, but I'll get a better situation, in terms of position, reads, blinds, etc.

A new player, who may not have the experience to weigh all of those situational factors, is probably better off moving in with QQ. It will be a favorite vs. most of the hands that will call it in a low buy-in SNG. So I can't say that advice is "wrong."

Cris

[BradleyT]

In a SNG I'll take my chances every time with QQ going all in PF if it's been raised to me.

SnGs last 65 hands and you've got the 3rd best starting hand and people here are going to fold it? Wussville called, they want you back.

[William]

[ QUOTE ]
In a SNG I'll take my chances every time with QQ going all in PF if it's been raised to me.

SnGs last 65 hands and you've got the 3rd best starting hand and people here are going to fold it? Wussville called, they want you back.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's the new trend; get good hands and don't play them because if you do, you risk losing big /images/graemlins/grin.gif
Much better to play the straight and flush draws /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I can't wait for the Euro-ChikenAmerican tourney /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[CrisBrown]

Hi William,

[ QUOTE ]
It's the new trend; get good hands and don't play them because if you do, you risk losing big
Much better to play the straight and flush draws

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not a question of not playing QQ. It's a question of not overplaying QQ early in a SNG. To me, calling myself all-in with QQ -- after I've raised, been reraised, and reraised again all-in -- is overplaying the hand. With the opponents I typically see, I'm no better than a coin-flip favorite to win the hand, and I'll often be dominated by AA or KK.

If you're facing opponents who will push in with any pocket pair and any Ax, then yes, you're +EV to call yourself all-in with QQ. But I don't see that kind of opponent often enough to make it a positive play.

Cris