Routine aggression ?

[Tosh]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button <font color="purple">(Reasonable Player)</font> calls, SB folds, BB folds.

Flop: (7.33 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, Reasonable Player raises, Hero 3-bets, Reasonable Player calls.

Turn: (6.66 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero bets, Reasonable Player calls.

River: (8.66 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero bets.

[PokerBob]

IMO ace-rag is worthless, especially in a mulitway pot (unless soooted, in which case it is juicy).
I think you usually stand to win a little or lose a lot.

[bisonbison]

[ QUOTE ]
IMO ace-rag is worthless, especially in a mulitway pot (unless soooted, in which case it is juicy).
I think you usually stand to win a little or lose a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tosh, you should really fold 85o preflop.

[sthief09]

I wouldn't call it routine, because most people wouldn't play it this way. I think you played it the best possible way. I just hope he doesn't call the river with his ace high.

[Gravy (Gravy Smoothie)]

If you think he'll fold the river more than one time in 6 or so, the river bet is good. Otherwise, give up.

Overall, I like the way you played it.

[sfer]

I think the only potential controversy is the river bet. Can he fold a medium pair?

[spamuell]

I'm not sure I like it. What do you put him on? Seems to me he'd play something like 88 this way, and he's not folding the river. Doesn't really look like he has Ax unless it's exactly A/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the only potential controversy is the river bet. Can he fold a medium pair?

[/ QUOTE ]

Does he need to to make it correct ?

[sfer]

He's either got that or Ace high, given your description. Few call the river with an Ace after only cold-calling preflop. But if he shows down lots of medium pair losers on boards with overcards, I think checking the river is best.

[Nottom]

Meh, I don't like it. If the board didn't double pair you might get away with it, but now his A9s or whatever just caught your "AK" so hes gonna call.

I don't think any pairs or aces are folding, and you certainly aren't getting called by a worse hand. Check the river and hope for the best.

[sfer]

Sorry, didn't notice the river card. Now I definitely don't like the river bet.

[bicyclekick]

I think he's got 88 and isn't laying it down.

Eh. a river bet is probably a waste. I still would probably do it in the heat of action though hehe.

[PokerBob]

oops

[PokerNoob]

Is any reasonable player going to call an UTG raise with AJ even if it is soooted? I don't think reasonable player is going to fold, but betting the river is the only way to get him to fold, so I like the bet.

[spamuell]

Is any reasonable player going to call an UTG raise with AJ even if it is soooted?

Maybe. Depends what "reasonable" means, a good player may or may not (depending on past hands), but reasonable...

I don't think reasonable player is going to fold, but betting the river is the only way to get him to fold, so I like the bet.

Like it all you want, just realise that just because a bet is the only way to get your opponent to fold, this doesn't mean it is +EV.

What range of hands do you put a cold-caller of an UTG raise by a reasonable player on the button on? (If you reply to this, include them, I'd be interested to know what you think as this may be where the disagreement lies.) Consider that any pair and any ace is calling in the river and any hand worse than KQo is certainly folding. Do you like the bet?

[Nottom]

I can tell you the range of hands that he could have and will fold to this bet that you want him to fold.

K /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Yeah, that looks about right. So I suppose if he flashed a K /images/graemlins/spade.gif at some point in the hand I like the bet.

[Tosh]

Ok perhaps I need to make clear my definition of a reasonable player. When I say this for Party 3/6 I mean:

A player who has a reasonable understanding on starting hands, i.e. won't randomly play any 2 cards but still tends to overvalue things like suited aces and low pocket pairs, especially here for a raise. I suspect these players are capable of folding a missed nut flush on the end here.


I put him on this range of hands that I'm actually ahead of (or level): QJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif, KJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif, KQs, 44-22. Also possible are JJ, 99-66, and Ax /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

I don't believe he folds any pair I'm behind here but my feeling was regardless of a double paired board he folds a missed A /images/graemlins/spade.gif flush here enough to be profitable in accordance with the pot size.

[webiggy]

I agree with spamuell. UTG could be holding high to mid pocket pairs - Many players at this level will play an ace in hopes it catches and trumps the high pair. Fact is, its pretty easy to put UTG raisers on hands and most are not AA or KK and probably half are drawing hands.

Could you see a cold caller calling with JTs or Axs? I do. I might also see a call with pairs to about 88 or 77. Suited connectors (especially high ones) might be worth a call. The fact that this hand was called down tells me that this player had a pair and put UTG on a calling hand.

Raising with KQo in UTG is debatable anyway except to mix up play, no? Would this play not have been more effective had hero just called pf?

[PokerNoob]

Coldcall on button after a UTG raise and UTG+1 coldcall? AQ, 88, 99, TT. AK, JJ, QQ, KK and AA I'm raising. I just don't like AJ here if I respect UTG's raise. Maybe I'm too tight and should be coldcalling some soooted aces here.

I think some weak tighties MAY let some winning hands go, that's why I like the bet. You are right though, no worse hands will call, but will they even be in the hand at this point? Maybe KJ spades? But I'm not sure that would be a reasonable preflop coldcall.

[Tosh]

If I held something like A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif would you be more inclined to agree with the play ?

[Nottom]

No. I'd like it if you had 22 however.

Also, I really don't like the whole flow of the hand. I think you should have let it go on the flop when he raised you.

[sthief09]

Absolutely. You want him to fold an ace, which I believe to be his most likely holding. If he was drawing and missed, he might just fold the hand out of habit. I think the bet makes an A fold about 50% of the time, which is pretty critical here.

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the bet makes an A fold about 50% of the time, which is pretty critical here.

[/ QUOTE ]

On a two pair board, heads-up on the river, without a huge amount of action in the hand, for one bet, closing the action and about to see a showdown, I think your estimate of an Ace folding 50% of the time is way too high. I'd go with closer to 3%.

[Tosh]

I go with 20%. I have not missed a single bet or raise I believe he can be thrown off an ace around this amount of times.

[Nottom]

And what do you think the chances are that he has an A instead of a pocket pair?

[spamuell]

If he really is a reasonable player, I just can't see him making it to the river with Ace-high and folding it when the board double pairs. Barely anyone would fold Ace high here, and, as Nottom said (or implied), he's probably going to have a pocket pair more often than A-x anyway.

I can't see this river bet as being +EV, even if you will occasionally get a better hand or hand that would split to fold.

[Tosh]

About 50:50 after the turn but also a small chance he held a different flush draw. I believed that there was also a small chance I just counterfeited his small pair and that swung it for me.

This is certainly not my normal line of play. I've been trying to further up my aggression and I think I just smelt weakness here.

[Tosh]

Re: my defintion of a reasonable player just means less bad than usual.

[tpir90036]

well when he doesn't raise the turn it is altogether possible that he was on a spade draw...the board pairing again on the river hurts as he might call with an ace. i don't know that this aggrssion is routine against an "average" opponent. but it doesn't look too bad here...