playing 2nd pair like a girl...

[tpir90036]

live 5/10 game. lots of soft spots but a few good/tricky players...

MP limps, i limp in the cutoff with K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif, button limps, SB folds, BB checks.

flop: A /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. BB checks, tricky MP bets, i call (mistake #1?), very good button player raises (this could be anything from an ace, to a 6, to a flush draw....he mixes up his play a lot and my only read is that it's probably not an ace becasue he probably would have raised pre-flop unless it's a small suited ace.) BB folds, MP calls, and i call.

Turn: X /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (A /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif)
MP checks, i check and now the button checks. i guess it was a spade raise after all.....

River: blanks, it's checked around and i win againt a busted flush draw for the button and a busted KJs gut-shot from MP.

mistakes:
0) i should have raised pre-flop, i know.
1) not raising the flop? i think i should have done this for sure.
2) not betting the turn? i wasn't sure what was going on in the hand quite yet...if i would have raised the flop it would have been easier to play.
3) not betting the river? i think i *need* to bet this river although neither would have called in this situation.

the problem i have with this hand is that i would have folded the turn if someone bet. this is horribly weak-tight but i don't really know of a better line for 2nd pair when i am stuck in between a decent player and a good player who are capable of some moves.

i try to let my reads evolve during the course of a hand but that is difficult against people who are capable of representing something else very well. i feel like it's wrong to immediately peg a flush draw on the button and stick to it like glue....even though it would have been correct in this case. how do the experts on here handle their reads? do they nail down a hand and stick to it or does it narrow down over the course of the hand?

all comments greatly appreciated....
-tpir

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
1) not raising the flop? i think i should have done this for sure.


[/ QUOTE ]

With only 5sb in on the flop I think it's raise or fold time when the action gets to you. Once the button raised you were sort of hosed, now it looks like someone has an Ace and maybe someone has the flush and you are toast.

I would have been happy to get a free showdown after this. Seems like a river bet is a very thin value bet or -EV. No Ace will fold, a draw won't pay you off so you have to hope to get called by a Qx hand. Maybe someone had Qx /images/graemlins/spade.gif and will pay off, but seems more likely someone has an Ace to me.

[umdpoker]

this is exactly why i fold on the flop with 2nd pr, unless i have some other draw. i really think calling here is -ev.

[tpir90036]

no way. there is no reason to assume in a 3-way pot with more aggressive opponents that one of them has top pair. this was my suspicion and why i hung around since i knew they both had the sense to back off on the turn if it didn't end up heads up. i don't think playing 2nd pair is +EV in the long run....but it's weak-tight to fold here every time. if i would have raised pre-flop or on the flop the hand would have been easier to play since i would have been the aggressor and not just a bystander.

[tripdad]

you're right! raising preflop is the only way to go here. you would have seen much better results had you done this first.

cheers!

[sthief09]

first-in limp in MP = weak cards and/or weak player

with one limper and great position I attack the blinds all the time, with hands as bad as ATo or KJo. I think it works for me. a lot of people are unable to distinguish in their minds between an early and late position raise. so raising these hands has the small added value that you will either get respect on your raise, or if you show hands you raise like ATo, they might disrespect your EP raises

[lil']

On the whole, you played this hand waaaay to passively. Checking and calling all the time leaves you in the dark.

Raise pre-flop. Failing that, raise the flop. His bet does not mean he has to have an ace, and you have a high middle pair with a good kicker.

On the river, you have to trust your read and bet.

i try to let my reads evolve during the course of a hand but that is difficult against people who are capable of representing something else very well.
It's difficult because of your passive approach to the hand. Betting and raising would help define everyone's hands, not to mention get money in the pot when you may have the best hand.

i feel like it's wrong to immediately peg a flush draw on the button and stick to it like glue
You're right, it is wrong to do that. Put him on a range of hands. As the hand goes on, you gather more info and narrow it down. For example, on the turn, you were able to pretty easily narrow it down to a flush draw based on his actions.

[umdpoker]

i still think you gotta fold or raise. calling is terrible in my opinion.