A little brain teaser

[Gonzoman]

Some time ago, a thread was created to see who could come up with the worst hand which can be the nuts in hold-em. The result was qqq87, holding qq with a board of q8723(edited since I had this wrong originally) no flush possible.

My teaser is, what is the best hold-em hand which can never be the nuts? For example, obviously 1 pair and 2 pair can never be the nuts, 3 jacks can't be the nuts, etc...

If this has been discussed before, I apoligize.

[TheGrifter]

JJJQ7

[MRBAA]

Worst hand can be: QQQ87
holdling QQ on a board of 23 78Q, no flush

[PseudoPserious]

I'd say a king-high flush. (If you have a suited king and make the nut flush, you've got an ace-high flush.)

Any full house, quads, or straight flush could be the nuts depending on what the board is.

Any full house made with a pair in your hand can never be the nuts, but I don't think that quite answers your question.

PP

[Gonzoman]

[ QUOTE ]
Worst hand can be: QQQ87
holdling QQ on a board of 23 78Q, no flush

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops, sorry about that.

[Gonzoman]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd say a king-high flush. (If you have a suited king and make the nut flush, you've got an ace-high flush.)

Any full house, quads, or straight flush could be the nuts depending on what the board is.

Any full house made with a pair in your hand can never be the nuts, but I don't think that quite answers your question.

PP

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want to set a restriction on the hole cards, for example 'any straight while holding 44'. I'm only looking for the best final 5 card hand which can't be the nuts.

[PseudoPserious]

Alright, I'll stand by my answer of a king-high flush then.

[Warik]

Best hand that can't be the nuts, eh? OK... so we have to start from the top down this time.

Well that's easy...

The hand in question is the idiot-end of a straight flush (can anybody who bets a straight flush be an idiot? /images/graemlins/smile.gif) Anyway, here goes

STRAIGHT FLUSH NINE-to-KING

You: 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Board: T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <whatever>

You have a straight flush, nine to king, but it can never be nuts because the ace of diamonds beats you.

I sense this is not what you were looking for, since it was much too easy.

[Gonzoman]

[ QUOTE ]
Best hand that can't be the nuts, eh? OK... so we have to start from the top down this time.

Well that's easy...

The hand in question is the idiot-end of a straight flush (can anybody who bets a straight flush be an idiot? /images/graemlins/smile.gif) Anyway, here goes

STRAIGHT FLUSH NINE-to-KING

You: 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Board: T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <whatever>

You have a straight flush, nine to king, but it can never be nuts because the ace of diamonds beats you.

I sense this is not what you were looking for, since it was much too easy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, not what I was looking for since a King high Straight flush can be the nuts with a 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif2 /images/graemlins/club.gif3 /images/graemlins/club.gif board.

[bisonbison]

Kings full of aces.

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Worst hand can be: QQQ87
holdling QQ on a board of 23 78Q, no flush

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops, sorry about that.

[/ QUOTE ]
holding QQ here IS the nuts.

[PseudoPserious]

Oooooh....good one /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[nykenny]

this has to be right...

[spamuell]

If it can't lose but can split, do you still count it as the nuts?

[pokeryogi]

I'll go with the idiot end of a straight flush with a 3 straight flush on board.

[Gonzoman]

[ QUOTE ]
If it can't lose but can split, do you still count it as the nuts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say yeah, it still counts as the nuts, ie. having an Ace high straight with a kqjt9 board. Is that consistent with what is generally accepted?

[namknils]

I think this has to be right. Holding 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, a straight flush to the queen with a board of T /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif2 /images/graemlins/club.gif3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Right?

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
Kings full of aces.

[/ QUOTE ]

AK on AAK72 board is the nuts

[J.R.]

He means Kings full of Aces, or AK on a AKKxx board or KK on an AAKxx board.

You posted an Aces full of kings hand.

[Gonzoman]

[ QUOTE ]
Kings full of aces.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can think of 1 (and only 1) better hand which can't be the nuts. Anyone else?

[muzungu]

C'mon people, I even got this one...

22223.

-muz

[Gonzoman]

[ QUOTE ]
C'mon people, I even got this one...

22223.

-muz

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this hand even possible in hold-em? I guess if that's your point, the original problem asked 'what hold-em hand'. Nice try at finding a loophole though.

If it is possible, and I just don't see it, it could be because sometimes I'm an idiot. Please show the board and the hole cards to make 22223.

The best hold-em hand I could find which can't be the nuts is Aces full of twos.

[Hotrod0823]

Hole: 2 2

Board: 2 2 3 3 3

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
The best hold-em hand I could find which can't be the nuts is Aces full of twos.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure Aces full of 3s can't be either.

[Nottom]

meh, yeah it can.

If you have A3 and the board is AA332 you have the nuts.

I think the Aces full of 2s has to be it then.

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
C'mon people, I even got this one...

22223.

-muz

[/ QUOTE ]

Couldn't this just as easily be KKKKA or XXXXX+1?

KK
KKAAA/KKAAX

QQ
QQKKK/QQKKX

JJ
JJQQQ/JJQQX

You get the picture.

SpaceAce

[Ed Miller]

22223 is the nuts if your hole cards are 32 and the board is 22233.

[MrDannimal]

I'm not sure you don't have a flawed question. You're trying to find the best possible hand that can NEVER be the nuts on any board.

The inspiration asked for a specific hand/board combo that was assured of being the nuts. The opposite concept (what you're talking about) requires a specific board, but you seem to want to exclude that idea.

Maybe a way of looking at this is:

Take every possible combination of starting cards. Can you construct a board which will make that combination the nuts? If so, then there is NO HAND that can NEVER be the nuts given a user chosen board. Right?

[namknils]

Are we going to get an answer to this brain teaser? Just curious.

[Gonzoman]

[ QUOTE ]
Are we going to get an answer to this brain teaser? Just curious.

[/ QUOTE ]

I made the problem up, and the best answer we have is Aces over 2's. It's easy to show any better hand can be the nuts, so it only remains to show that Aces over 2's can't be the nuts to prove it.

[bisonbison]

Possible ways for a player to have Aces full of twos:

Player - Board - Better Pocket Hand
AA - A226J - 22
A2 - AA26J - A6, AJ
22 - AAA6J - Ax, 66, JJ
xx - AAA22 - Ax, 22