KK and QTs hands for review please! [Archive]

View Full Version : KK and QTs hands for review please!

afk

03-24-2004, 01:16 AM

Hand One:
PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO raises, SB 3-bets, Hero folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls.

I called with the odds to chase (I think..) but I didn't really know what to make of the 3-bet, and the fear of getting capped behind me pushed me to fold. Good? Marginal? Bad? UGLY?

Turn: (7 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB bets, CO calls.

River: (9 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets, CO folds.

Final Pot: 10 BB

Results in white below: 
SB doesn't show.
Outcome: SB wins 9.90 BB. 

Hand 2:
PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 raises, Hero 3-bets, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 caps, Hero calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (24 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG+2 calls, MP3 raises, Hero 3-bets, Button calls $0.05 (All-In), SB folds, BB caps, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

I 3bet to see where I was at and because I felt my hand was best. The BB cap is what caught me off guard here (it's common for people to call 3bets and caps at this limit with junk - as I'm sure it is at other limits). I decided to go into call down mode after that.

Turn: (19.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players, 1 all-in)
BB bets, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

The pot is huge, 1 bet? Definetly call? Heck it looks like I'm getting the odds to draw a King.

River: (23.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players, 1 all-in)
BB bets, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Is this again a must-call for one bet since the pot is big (a la Mr. Miller)?

Final Pot: 27.50 BB

Results in white below: 
BB shows 6s 6c (three of a kind, sixes).
UTG+2 shows Qc 4c (one pair, fours).
MP3 shows Qd Qh (one pair, queens).
Hero shows Kd Kc (one pair, kings).
Button shows Td 9h (one pair, tens).
Outcome: BB wins 27.50 BB. 

I guess I'm just looking to evaluate the overall correctness of these hands, since they are some of the more tricky hands I've played recently. Thanks for any help.

sthief09

03-24-2004, 01:25 AM

Hand 1: What were you thinking? There's 13 bets in the pot! You have 6 outs to the nuts!

It's almost never right to fold in a situation like this. You're 2-1 to hit and there's 2 people in a raising war, plus dead money.

This play is weak-tight and you'll never even be a break-even player unless you sack up and start calling bets in big pots. Keep reading the posts here, concentrating on where people raised when you would've called or bet when you would've checked. I have a feeling this will help you greatly.

Hand 2: with so many people behind, I would've raised the turn. Then, if you get reraised, you can get the 2 caught in the middle to fold. This greatly increases your chances of winning the pot. If one person holding bottom pair folds, then thats 2 more outs you have if BB has 2 pair.

I'd expect to be shown a set, but I'd like to improve my chances of winning the pot when I'm not. The best way to do this is to get the 2 people in the middle to fold.

afk

03-24-2004, 01:47 AM

Yeah the more I look at hand 1 the more I dislike it. These two hands (especially number 1) do look on the weak tight side of things. Thanks for the heads up. I also think my 0 for 75 streak without a win tonight played into that as well - though I do pride myself on countless good preflop folds.

Rico Suave

03-24-2004, 11:42 AM

Hey sthief09:

[ QUOTE ]
with so many people behind, I would've raised the turn. Then, if you get reraised, you can get the 2 caught in the middle to fold. This greatly increases your chances of winning the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand what you are saying, but I think that it is not worth paying an extra 2 bb to try and get the other 2 opponents to fold.

First of all, I think the chance of you being WAY behind are just too great. Unless the bb would call 2bets out of the big blind with J4, J6, or 64 (I know it can happen), I think a set is the most likely holding for the bb. I think this is the overiding factor in not raising the turn, as you are drawing to 2 outs to beat him; and I do not think that if you need to "clean up" your K outs. In addition, MP3 sure looks like an overpair, possibly AA.

I am all for playing aggressive in large pots, but I think the chance that you are acutally ahead in this hand is too small to justify spending an extra 2BB to attempt to get MP3 and UTG+2 to fold.

I just call the turn and river unimproved. Of course, I am pretty bad, so..... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

--Rico

Zetack

03-24-2004, 01:17 PM

Hand 1: on the flop you have an OESD. The when it comes back 3 bet to you you have 13-2 on your call--a clear call. Sure you might get capped behind you but you also have a backdoor flush draw so its a call.

Hand #2. I'm a little worried about Mp3 having AA, but I think your flop three bet is good. When BB caps its worrisome.

On the turn your call ends the action, go ahead and do it.

Nothing scary about that five on the river, just like the turn I think you call it, although I'm expecting to get shown a set of jacks.

--Zetack

spamuell

03-24-2004, 01:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: with so many people behind, I would've raised the turn. Then, if you get reraised, you can get the 2 caught in the middle to fold. This greatly increases your chances of winning the pot. If one person holding bottom pair folds, then thats 2 more outs you have if BB has 2 pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. It just looks like you're pretty far behind from the flop and turn action (cap and then bet into the field), and I don't think you're going to win without improving very often. You have to call the turn bet because you may have the best hand and you're practically getting odds to draw to a K (you have the implied odds), but there's no advantage in this hand to getting third and fourth best hands to fold unless they're holding AQ or two hearts and the K/images/graemlins/heart.gif falls, improving you to second best (which is pretty unlikely because if they hold two hearts they're definitely not folding and if AQ made it this far, it's probably not going anywhere either). In general, it's better to have these callers around if you do improve.

kiemo

03-24-2004, 02:46 PM

Did you log into my account by accident last night?

On the first hand I call this every time. Of course with me the 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif falls on the turn and I wind up losing to some jerky who limped in from UTG with Q2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Second hand I put BB on a set with the cap and will probably call the rest of the way. If BB checks, I raise and probably fold to a check raise. Probably not the best play due to pot size, but calculating when to fold and when not to fold is a weak area of my game at this time.

spamuell

03-24-2004, 02:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Did you log into my account by accident last night?

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh?

Nottom

03-24-2004, 04:45 PM

Hand 1: awful awful fold. Even discounting the flush outs you have 6 outs to the nuts and are gettign pretty good odds even for 2 bets (6.5-1 ? ), if the board was paired you could consider folding but you have to call here.

Hand 2: I might raise the turn, but if the BB is normally passive then calling him down is best. You will see 2-pair or a set here most of the time with the occasional AJ or QQ.

I really love UTG+2 and the button here, aren't they great.

afk

03-24-2004, 05:21 PM

Hey thanks for all of the replies everyone.

I'm glad I got called out on such a glaring mistake like hand one, that won't be happening again. As far as I can tell, hand two is more or less correct though, the only dispute being whether to raise or just call the turn. With the BB's cap and then subsequent bet into the field I think I'll be behind most of the time here so I'm not too upset with the call. If he hadn't capped I probably would have raised. And yes, the BB was a passive player (as far as I could tell), which is why the cap put me into call down mode.

And to nottom's comment on UTG+2/Button - I can't wait to be playing .5/1 with those types of players. It's beyond me how anyone could call down a pair of Tens, much less a pair of fours. But hey, who am I to complain?!