Rivered baby flush in a big pot

[joker122]

Party 2/4 no reads.

BB with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif

UTG calls, EP raises, MP1 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls I call and then UTG freaking limp reraises, EP caps and everyone calls. No turning back now...7 to the flop for 56 SB.

Flop: K/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif I'm expecting to pay a pretty penny for my flush with this flop.

SB checks, I check, UTG checks, EP checks?!? MP1 bets, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds, I call, UTG calls, EP folds!?

5 players and 16.5 BB in the pot.

Turn: 9/images/graemlins/club.gif

Checked to MP1 who bets, everyone calls.

5 players and 21.5 BB pot.

River: 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif

The action is on me.

Needless to say I was fearing a larger flush what with all the callers. I figured either MP1, CO or button had a big suited ace to cold call a preflop raise. UTG could have something to make some noise about, too.

What's your move on the river? If you bet and are raised how many raises do you call cold?

Results soon.

[AceHigh]

If I check, it because I'm planning on check/raising. I bet and call... I dunno, 2 cold coming back.

[Mike Gallo]

Needless to say I was fearing a larger flush what with all the callers.

Why bother drawing to a hand that you can not bet confidently when you hit it?

[AceHigh]

"Don't draw to a hand you can't bet" ...Ray Zee

[Mike Gallo]

Dude,

I knew that subliminally.

[umdpoker]

i would bet and call how ever many bets come back. on an unpaired board where i have to use both of my cards to make a flush, i am betting like hell. i am willing to bet everybody has a big pair or 2 and is afraid of the straight.

[joker122]

Well, I decided to check and then raise if it came back only 1 bet to me. Unfortunatly, the worst case scenario presented itself: it was checked through. I could have never anticipated what these guys showed down (except for MP1).

MP1 showed ATo for the flopped nut straight.
CO folded, didn't even show down.
Button showed 88 for a pair of 8s.
UTG showed AJo for a pair of jacks.

MHIG

I should have bet.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Button showed 88 for a pair of 8s.

[/ QUOTE ]

he played that well, huh?

[bicyclekick]

No way in hell i'm calling this when it's 2 back to me, and I woulda mucked this to the raise 99% of the time. if it's 7 players for 2 bets and i'm on the bb i'll call though, but it's not, so fold!

You got damn lucky.

[sthief09]

Changing this completely, because I realized I'm an idiot...

2 things about the preflop call

- this is why it's much, much better to call this when you close the action, because you can't get trapped

- the problem with calling 2 bets, as opposed to 1, is that your implied odds are reduced. There are currently more bets in the pot, but each subsequent bet will make less of a difference because you are being forced to call 2 bets.

I honestly don't know if you should've called the 2 here. I don't think it makes much of a difference though. It is an uncommon situation and one that won't really affect your long run statistics in any way at all. I think the decision whether to bet the river is much more important than the one to call preflop.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
No way in hell i'm calling this when it's 2 back to me, and I woulda mucked this to the raise 99% of the time. if it's 7 players for 2 bets and i'm on the bb i'll call though, but it's not, so fold!

You got damn lucky.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean you would have folded after EP capped? I'm just trying to make sure I know what you are saying.

Also, I didn't think calling 2 more bets was a terrible decision on my part. Considering I knew 7 players were in for 8 SB each, I think playing for the flush is +EV. I could be wrong though. Anyone else have an opinion on my preflop call?

[sthief09]

I like the concept of checking and seeing how things look when they get back to you. In Roy Cooke's book, he describes a number scenarios in which he does this, so I've started doing this with weak-ish hands from early position.

But I think you misused this concept. This is because you don't have a weak hand. The only thing that beats you is a better flush. You failed to consider the fact that in the likely scenario that no one has a flush, it might get checked through because weak players (which is most players) don't tend to bet with a 3-flush on board.

Just always remember that flush-over-flush isn't all that more common than set-over-set, and you don't stop raising that because you fear a better set, do you?

[Mike Gallo]

think playing for the flush is +EV. I could be wrong though. Anyone else have an opinion on my preflop call?

I fold this preflop.

You contradicted yourself here. First you wrote you checked because someone hit the flush, now you write... I think playing for the flush is +EV.

If you thought so you would have bet.

IMHO you played the hand poorly. You should have bet the river. You had the intestinal fortitude to chase to the river however when you hit your hand you lost your never and checked. Not good /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[southerndog]

Because the pot was gigantic!

[sfer]

No. Because the pot was large AND you have a big draw.

[sfer]

I agree. Lead this out.

[Glurfle]

Besides what everyone else is saying about leading the river, why aren't you check-raising the flop for value? I'll bet anyone who's already called one bet on this flop is going to be more than willing to call 2 more cold even if you get 3-bet.

For what it's worth, I might call the first preflop raise, but I'd fold to the cap.

[bunky9590]

Jeez, and I though I was maniacal calling a capped 5 way flop with ATs. I'm the rock of gibralter compared to Joker.

Well, at least I had the stones to bet when the Ace hi the river /images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

Dude, muck that 83s to the FIRST RAISE, let alone the cap.

Though you are welcome in any of the games I'm in my friend.

Seriously 83s is complete cheese. Let it go.

[Thomsen]

I would never bet this river but i am perhaps too cautious...my thinking is you have payed some money to see the showdown already, why get pushed off the winner ? Or maybe you wont get oushed off maybe you want so much to win that you will call a raise and a reraise....

check it - but do call if someone bets or raises