K3s from BB w/ K on flop

[Ralph Wiggum]

Pokerstars (25c / 50c)
No read on table. 8 players

Hero is dealt K /images/graemlins/heart.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif in BB
MP calls, MP+1 calls, CO calls, SB calls, HERO checks

Flop is J /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Checked through

Turn is 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
SB bets, HERO raises, folded to SB who calls
I doubted anyone else had the King after it was checked through. I have no idea what anyone has at this point, but I figure I raise and find out w/ my top pair.

River is A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Checked through
Should I have bet here?

[Ralph Wiggum]

SB shows J /images/graemlins/heart.gif7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Ralph takes the pot w/ a pair of Kings

[thirddan]

were you checking the flop in order to c/r?

i think you have a value bet on the river also, SB is most likely betting a J or a 9...

[Ralph Wiggum]

I didn't think it was worth betting w/ my sad kicker. I tell myself that I should play this hand looking for the flush rather than a pair of Kings.

[thirddan]

i think checking the flop with the intention of folding no matter what is not the best thing to do...

If the bet comes from EP or MP or a solid player then you can probably dump it, or if it is 2 cold back to you, but if a bet comes from LP or the Button i would raise it most of the time in order to make players call two cold and give myself the best chance to win the pot...

[sfer]

Be the river. SB likely has second pair which he assumed was good when the flop was checked through.

Me fail English? That's un-possible.

[Ric]

I think a bet on the flop is good. If you only get callers, then you're most likely ahead, and if you get raised then you're behind. It seems like on the flop that most micro players won't put in the first bet if they have a big hand. However, they gladly will raise or 3-bet something like a big K, 2 pair, or a flopped straight. Figure out where you are now while the bets are still cheap, then go from there.

For the turn, I like the raise, but what would you do if SB 3-bet it? SB could have been trying to checkraise the flop with a big hand.

This may be weak-tight, but I like checking behind on the river. I don't think SB will call a bet here if he's behind, but will checkraise if ahead.

[JudgeRW]

I would bet out on this flop. You have top pair, and a backdoor flush draw. If you get raised you can count on a king with a better kicker and you know where you stand.

[Ralph Wiggum]

[ QUOTE ]
For the turn, I like the raise, but what would you do if SB 3-bet it?

[/ QUOTE ] That would probably convince me to dump this hand.

[sfer]

I don't think a raise behind on the flop tells you if you're behind. Clearly hands to which you're drawing near dead can raise the flop, but lots of hands that you're ahead of will raise behind you like a spade draw or T8. Bets on the flop are cheap and lots of flop raises don't tell you much. I will routinely raise just two big overcards on the flop or medium pairs on ragged boards.

Much better I think to check and see what the field does.

I think the hand was played well.

[Ralph Wiggum]

[ QUOTE ]
Much better I think to check and see what the field does.

[/ QUOTE ] What if the field bets? I'm thinking fold. I don't feel comfortable playing this hand w/ a weak kicker if I feel the bet is good (exception would be like a last-to-act bet, when it feels like BS) representing TP w/ better kicker. I'm looking for a flush flop, and I feel like that I got lucky seeing it checked around & a harmless looking turn card.

[JudgeRW]

True, but I don't think that is typical of the players on Party. At least not the majority that I have encountered in my admittedly short tenure. I still think I would raise it up to get a feel for where I'm at here. But I do see your point.

[TBone]

I'd bet the flop and see what kind of action occurred. There are a lot of draw possibilities on that board so a raise doesn't tell you you're actually behind as they could be raising their draws.

These hands are difficult to play when beginning. I had a lot of issues playing these hands and checked hoping to check through. With more time and experience, you'll find that being the aggressor will more than likely be the best option here.

Turn raise is good. Value bet on the river is probably in order since that person bet before the Ace every came. The most likely scenario when you are beat there would be two pair, pairing up the Ace on the river. More often than not though, you're probably ahead on the river.

T

[sfer]

Let's say you bet, get called in two spots, and the button raises. Now what? It's not at all clear where you stand.

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
This may be weak-tight, but I like checking behind on the river. I don't think SB will call a bet here if he's behind, but will checkraise if ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that SB is going to call with any pair on the river here. Any pair. It's worth a river bet.

If you get check-raised, you can pretty much assume you're dead and dump it.

[sfer]

Now that I've had my morning coffee and am thinking more lucidly, I'll elaborate.

On this board with many draws possible, leading the flop and getting raised doesn't tell you whether you're ahead or behind. And if you're behind, you're not likely to improve. That's why I think checking is best on the flop.

[Zetack]

I bet out the flop and chunk it if it gets raised...sure somebody might raise up here with second pair or a draw but with your non-kicker I don't think you want to be jousting it up with somebody showing some strength. If its not raised to you bet out the turn--and dump it to a raise again unless you pick up the flush draw.

Then with the ace, check call the river. You won't drop an ace and you avoid a raise, and might induce a bluff.

Kicker troubles are rough, but you king pair (particularly if an ace never falls) is good enough times to make it worth playing until somebody plays back at you.

--Zetack

The only caveat I have to my own advice is because of the backdoor flush, if I bet out the flop and was raised I might call the raise to see if I pick up the flush draw, then check fold the turn if I don't.

[cold_cash]

The problem with betting out on the flop, as I see it, is the very real possibility of someone limping and calling all the way to the river with a hand like K5. He's afraid of his kicker, and you're not sure about yours. He won't raise because he's scared of you, but he's sure as hell not laying down top pair, especially for one bet.

I vote for checking the flop, hoping for a bet from late position, and raising. I think this is the best way to get that K5 type of hand to fold. Also, you might fold out some singleton Aces along the way.

If the bet comes from an early position and there are a bunch of callers or a raise, I wouldn't lose too much sleep after I folded.

(Sorry if I'm repeating what someone else has said...)