Is this a racist attitude?

[Vee Quiva]

Everyone has opinions on how certain races or age groups act when it comes to poker. Common ones I have heard are that old folks are rocks, young people are loose aggressive, women are weak-tight, etc. Obviously in poker sometimes it's just a starting point until you know the person better.

What I noticed recently is that there are a lot of asians playing poker. And it seems like everytime they sit at my table they are very loose aggressive. Raising at every opportunity and bluffing at least half the time. I have no problem playing against this type of player, in fact I have done pretty well.

My question is, has anyone else noticed this? Is there something in their culture that promotes this attitude? From my limited knowledge of their culture, I would expect them to be very tight with their money.

Just wondering.

[Peter Harris]

I have been to china and played mah jongg with a few of them and those guys LOVE to gamble. Absolutely love it.

you are more likely than not seeing the fellas i had a great time with around the walls.

I don't know where you formulated your opinion of "asian" [better to specify the country, lest you canadians and americans and inuits become called "North Americans"] culture. I prescribe a holiday there with your poker winnings. It was one of the greatest places i visited.

Regards,
Peter Harris

[TwoNiner]

I was about to post the same thing. Some "Asians" really enjoy gambling.. I've just picked up some stuff from random documentaries and heard casino hosts talk on the Travel Channel about the Asian market(Chinese in particular I think) being extremely important to the casino and they go out of their way to make them feel at home

[Peter Harris]

[ QUOTE ]
(casinos) go out of their way to make them (Chinese people) feel at home

[/ QUOTE ]

Hence the abundance of Red (lucky chinese colour), lack of "13's" at the hotels and baccarat tables.

Sorry for all the inverted commas and all, but i'm a social anthropologist by degree; gotta do it right!!

Pete

[Vee Quiva]

Is there a big difference between Chinese attitudes and Japanese attitudes? I am in the financial services industry and for years I heard about the strong saving habits of the Japanese. I figured this would transfer over to not gambling, but apparently this is not the case.

[Peter Harris]

is there a great difference between Canadian and United States culture? or between United States and Mexican culture?

of course there is; proximity means little. China has wild variance in what would be its "cultural traits" being a country with over 1 billion people in it.

I guess what this boils down to is "first impressions". it's a good idea to knock up an idea of what a player/culture is like, but revision of that idea is crucial. As you seem to have learnt.

Take a holiday to Japan (i missed it) then China and give us your opinions in the field! With the added jealousy factor. I have a deal with my girlfriend that if i win a $3000 tournament payout or higher i will take her around china. Yeah, fat chance...

Pete H

[TheGrifter]

Characterizing how you think your opponents will play based on their race (or sex, age, quality of dress) is a common mistake made by poker players. It doesn't take long to realize if someone is a LAG or a rock, base it on the cards, don't let appearance deceive you.

P.S. I have played with young asians who are rocks. I have played with old men who love action. There are diverse personalities in all so called "groups" of people.

[squiffy]

I am Japanese American from Hawaii. And have met many Chinese Americans, Taiwanese, and people from Hong Kong.
I think it is statistically accurate to say that the average Japanese and Chinese and the average Japanese and Chinese American love to gamble more than the average white American. I think this observation is statistically true. If you have ever been to a casino night at a college campus or even to local card clubs, you will probably observe that the percentage of Asians and Asian Americans present is far far higher than in the general population.

This observation if true, is not racist. Though it is certainly racial.

You can visit a prison in LA and find it is statistically true that the percentage of blacks and latinos there is probably higher than in the general population. Again, a racial observation. Not necessarily racist until you try to draw conclusions.

So the question is why do Asians gamble more or enjoy gambling more?

Some guesses -- no strong Puritanical or moral hang-ups about gambling in Asian culture and religion. Though this raises a tremendous paradox.

I think in the Christian religion there is a much stronger anti-gambling sentiment than in any Asian religion I am aware of.

Yet despite the stronger religious aversion to gambling in Christianity, the United States has far more casinos and gambling than China or Japan where I think there are few if any casinos. There may be a few casinos in Macao a former Portuguese colony and maybe some in Hong Kong.

If you watch Japanese movies there is a strong tradition of gambling going back to Samurai days. A huge percentage of samurai movies show gambling.

Possibly because Asian governments and societies are far more repressive than American governments, gambling may be one of the few outlets many Asians have for some safe excitement.

Analogously, Japanese don't view drunkenness with the same kind of moral disapproval as Americans. And many Europeans and Asians have much less of a hang up with public nudity and nudity on television than the average American.

So there are huge cultural differences in what people see as appropriate or inappropriate behavior.

Maybe the average white American enjoys gambling just as much as the average Asian or Asian American. But the average Asian or Asian American has much less trouble or moral misgivings about gambling.

There also may be a poverty factor. For example, If a high percentage of Asians in America are poor illiterate immigrants from Vietnam, let' say, than a higher percentage of them may have low-paying jobs and may see gambling as the only way to escape from their situation.

You should tend to see more gambling among poor and uneducated people than among well-educated professionals. For one, educated people may realize that playing slot machines is negative ev.

On a side note, many statistics show that there is a statistically significant correlations between high levels of smoking and low levels of education among Americans who smoke.

So it's a very complicated topic, dependent upon many factors, religion, culture, socio-economics, education, etc.

On another side note. Take full-body tattoos. In modern America, tattoing tends to be a sub-cultural phenomenon -- prisoners, military men, bikers, teens -- kind of an act of rebellion against authority.

But in ancient Maori or Polynesian culture tatooing was very mainstream and a right of passage to adult manhood, though also associated with warriors.

In Japan the Japanese mafia favor full body tattoos, which reflects the popularity of tattoos among prisoners and gangbangers in the U.S.

So sometimes cultural differences clearly exist. If you tell me you are going to pick a prisoner at random from an LA jail and you ask me to bet $1 million dollars at 1:1 on whether he does or does not have a tattoo somewhere on his body, then the statistically correct bet would be to bet that he likely does have a tattoo. This would be consistent with what you observe in the criminal subculture here in America.

Sorry for jumping around so much. But I find this an interesting topic which called to mind many disparate observations about cultural differences.

[Peter Harris]

thanks for a fantastic reply.

If you ever make it over to Edinburgh and are interested in further discussions, PM me. The anthropology department are keen for these sorts of chats!

Pete

[M2d]

Canadians like beer (molsens), mexicans like good beer (XX) and americans like bud, miller and coors.

[Michael Davis]

Nobody is arguing that all people conform to the stereotype. Nonetheless, profiling is unavoidable. You can pretend not to do it consciously.

Given a choice between two games, one filled with young Asians, the other with crusty old crackers, are you going to flip a coin to decide which game you sit in?

-Michael

[LivingLegend58]

Asians = Gambling

Period

[TheGrifter]

No, I'm going to watch the game for a few orbits. I'm not going to discuss this further because it has nothing to do with poker. The point is that any given asian man is no more or less likely to be a LAG than anyone else.

[TheGrifter]

Just so you know my beef is not with you but with the attitude expressed in the words ASIANS=GAMBLING.

First of all, it is impossible to attribute any characteristic to ASIANS. Since Asia includes thousands of diverse cultures. Do you think most vietnamese behave the same way as most Chinese? That's like saying canadians like spicy food because it's popular in Mexico.

So while you may able to throw some facts around like saying 25% of all adult vietnamese males enjoy recreational gambling, that in now way means ASIANS equal Gambling. It's an ignorant point of view.

That is all.

[bernie]

If most of a room is asian, and alot of asians play overaggressive, how does that compare to other races? The sample size is generally skewed a little.

I've never really bothered with racial profiling at a poker table. I'd rather do it myself based on their play. I've seen buys 1 step above a bum play very well and very sharp dressed men play idiotic. Insert race in either description.

I look more at mannerisms and how they carry themselves and interact in situations as one gauge if i havent played them yet. But not race.

b

[umdpoker]

dude, you left out the quality stuff like natural lite and keystone. i suppose sam adams deserves a mention as well.

[joker122]

I think this pertains to this thread. On page 46 of Caro's Book of Poker Tells Mike Caro writes, "Here are a few of my personal observations and those of my students. (Many of those students have been women and minorities, so in no sense are these comments intended as sexist, racist, or unfriendly.) As a general rule, women are harder to bluff than men. Orientals are either very skillful or very luck oriented. Relatively few blacks play to win; most tend to gamble more liberally than other players. When you're up against an unknown player, you'll earn extra profit by assuming he or she will play as a stereotype until you learn differently."

[whiskeytown]

at the risk of being labeled a liberal (I'll take the label) - the comparison of Canadian to US culture is interesting...

with the exception of Quebec, there would appear to be virtually no difference between the northern neighbors and their southern counterparts....Vancouver looks like Seattle, Calgary looks like Salt Lake City, etc, etc...on to the east.

Yet there is a major cultural difference (besides their love of hockey) - the Canadians simply are not as prone to gun violence as their US counterparts - it ain't cause of gun sales...it's just proportioally, the number of Canadians who die from gunshots are a much smaller percentage of the overall population then the US -

So, is that being racist? - noticing the traits of a culture isn't racism...and like the poster said above - asians are generally gamblers

At the same time, somethine Evelyn Ng, and an a Korean girl I once dated have both confirmed is that Asian families are usually really for gambling or really AGAINST it - I had the Korean girl stop calling me after we watched Rounders one night and she thought it was an unhappy ending, not cause he didn't hook up with the girl, but because he still felt the need to go play poker

anyways...my two pennies....take em or leave em...

RB

[umdpoker]

i think you will make even more by assuming that everybody you play against is a loose calling station until you have evidence to the contrary.

[joker122]

PBR

[GuyOnTilt]

Orientals are either very skillful or very luck oriented.

Just so you know, rugs are Oriental; people are not.

GoT

[Chris Daddy Cool]

As an "Asian" myself, I probably do fall into that category of ASIANS=GAMBLING. But there's another another stereotype that ASIANS=MATH GENIUS which also happen to make great "gamblers".
But I know just as many Asians who don't gamble or who aren't good in math as those who are, so its just stupid to assume things based on race.

BTW one of the very best poker players I know is an Asian female who is tight/agressive and can figure pot odds faster than a calculator.

[Homer]

Just so you know, rugs are Oriental; people are not.

I never understood why this used to be okay to say, but now isn't. One time I said this and my friend (who isn't Asian) flipped out. In what way is it derogatory? Just curious...

-- Homer

[B Dids]

That paragraph almost made me throw the book out of a window of a moving bus.

Even the advice seems lousy. "Assume a stereotype until proven otherwise?". How about "assume nothing until you get a read".

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
From my limited knowledge of their culture, I would expect them to be very tight with their money.

[/ QUOTE ]

hahahahaha, whereever u got that, it's wrong. oh, come to my table to taste the wrath of higher asian poker power... hehehehe

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
Just so you know my beef is not with you but with the attitude expressed in the words ASIANS=GAMBLING.

First of all, it is impossible to attribute any characteristic to ASIANS. Since Asia includes thousands of diverse cultures. Do you think most vietnamese behave the same way as most Chinese? That's like saying canadians like spicy food because it's popular in Mexico.

So while you may able to throw some facts around like saying 25% of all adult vietnamese males enjoy recreational gambling, that in now way means ASIANS equal Gambling. It's an ignorant point of view.

That is all.

[/ QUOTE ]

ASIANS (Chinese, Vietnamese, Korean) = GAMBLING

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
No, I'm going to watch the game for a few orbits. I'm not going to discuss this further because it has nothing to do with poker. The point is that any given asian man is no more or less likely to be a LAG than anyone else.

[/ QUOTE ]
An average ASIAN man (chinese, vietnamese, korean) is more likely to be a LAG than others.

[TheGrifter]

Kenny,

Since you're Asian you can get away with that /images/graemlins/smirk.gif. My point is basically this, a given asian at a poker table is not more likely to be a hyper aggressive player than a given frenchman or brit or anyone else.

This is the same attitude that says that because statistically a higher proportion of blacks/hispanics are in prison in the US than whites/asians then a black person is more likely to commit a crime. It's faulty logic, and just not true.

Also, just because a person enjoys gambling doesn't mean they are aggressive in poker. I play slots, but I am a rock at limit ring games. No correlation.

[TheGrifter]

So there are only three countries in Asia?

[oddjob]

it used to be ok to call african americans other things, but are no longer acceptable.

oriental is used to describe an object. that is the reasoning behind it.

i'm asian, and i don't really get it either. just seems way too sensitive. they're just words. they mean nothing if you don't think they do, but i guess i'll conform to it if it makes people feel better.

[ QUOTE ]
Just so you know, rugs are Oriental; people are not.

I never understood why this used to be okay to say, but now isn't. One time I said this and my friend (who isn't Asian) flipped out. In what way is it derogatory? Just curious...

-- Homer

[/ QUOTE ]

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
Kenny,

Since you're Asian you can get away with that /images/graemlins/smirk.gif. My point is basically this, a given asian at a poker table is not more likely to be a hyper aggressive player than a given frenchman or brit or anyone else.

This is the same attitude that says that because statistically a higher proportion of blacks/hispanics are in prison in the US than whites/asians then a black person is more likely to commit a crime. It's faulty logic, and just not true.

Also, just because a person enjoys gambling doesn't mean they are aggressive in poker. I play slots, but I am a rock at limit ring games. No correlation.

[/ QUOTE ]

hehe, thankfully, none of us are really arguing, we just chit chatting... /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
it used to be ok to call african americans other things, but are no longer acceptable.

oriental is used to describe an object. that is the reasoning behind it.

i'm asian, and i don't really get it either. just seems way too sensitive. they're just words. they mean nothing if you don't think they do, but i guess i'll conform to it if it makes people feel better.

[ QUOTE ]
Just so you know, rugs are Oriental; people are not.

I never understood why this used to be okay to say, but now isn't. One time I said this and my friend (who isn't Asian) flipped out. In what way is it derogatory? Just curious...

-- Homer

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

call me Chinese and we will be friends, call me american and we will be friends, call me asian, i might resist /images/graemlins/grin.gif and don't call me oriental /images/graemlins/mad.gif call me kenny and i might just take your bankroll /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[deacsoft]

I would ask Men Nguyen, Scotty Nguyen, Evelyn Ng, Tony D, Johnny Chan, and Phil Hellmuth... no wait,... not Phil Hellmuth. But I would ask the others, and I know I left out a bunch, if they are loose raising maniacs who bluff all the time.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
I would ask Men Nguyen, Scotty Nguyen, Evelyn Ng, Tony D, Johnny Chan, and Phil Hellmuth... no wait,... not Phil Hellmuth. But I would ask the others, and I know I left out a bunch, if they are loose raising maniacs who bluff all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not too far off for the first 2, although they certainly know how to make that work for them.

[daryn]

i hate PC. i will call a black guy black, he will call me white, it's ok! asian is generally understood to mean people from countries like china, japan, korea, thailand, vietnam, laos, etc... yes india is in asia, but they're not considered "asian". i agree this is stupid, and i think even the notion of race is stupid, but that's the way things are.

anyways.. i believe that given two men, asian and white, the asian will probably be a bigger "gambler". we're talking probabilistically here. just like take a man and a woman at random.. the man is more likely to play poker.. who would disagree with this statement?

[Ulysses]

I have discussed w/ a number of my Korean, Vietnamese, and Chinese friends and we have decided to bring back the term Oriental into common usage when referring to people who come from the Orient, or Eastern Asia. They tell me that they are all sick of being grouped in w/ me, since Asian includes India, where my family is from.

[nykenny]

Ulysses,

do Indian ppl consider themselves Middle-Eastern, Arabic or Asian? Or just Indian? Like Chinese ppl are just chinese.

btw, are you Indian?

Kenny

[Dylan Wade]

It's not racist. It's simply a matter of fact. All asians LOVE to gamble. THEY LOVE IT. All asians are compulsive gamblers. Fact. I think because their home countries are so crowded they've evolved into chair warmers. Pro plinko players.

[Yeknom58]

This is just silly. Anytime you make any kind of assumptions based on race...thats racism.

You know I've noticed that polish people are really stupid or I've noticed lately that all the african american people I've met are criminals or I've noticed that Jews are really cheap. These aren't racist attitudes are they???

Again this is seriously the most retarded post ever. I can't believe that in this day and age people can still be so backwards.

[Ulysses]

Yes, I'm Indian and most Indian people don't really care. Indian, Asian, whatever.

[morgant]

MILWAUKEE'S BEST and SCHLITZ for crying out loud that is all i drank or ate for 3 years of college. i am sure you picked up on the fact that college usually takes four, and i am not a hardworking overachieving genius so read between the lines.

[nykenny]

/images/graemlins/smile.gif i feel the same way, that's why i'd be very happy to be addressed as Kenny than "that crazy asian" /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[morgant]

grift i see what you are getting at, but it is not racial nor immoral to make a judgment from ones experience. from all my time spent at casino's on the east coast of the USA(mind you the location) they are filled with Asians, a very dispraportionate amount. So one would have to conclude they like to gamble. Now i take a step further and look at the ones I have played cards with. And I can remember only one instance where the player was not an extremely LAGy player. So if nine out of ten of the asians i encounter on the tables are LAG, i my sample size is decent, i have made a pretty solid conclusion. Now i don't rely on that conclusion until a player has proven there style...

One Asian kid comes to mind, this story is pretty funny.

Playing 5/10kill at the woods. The guy on my left has been getting creamed all night, he's a nice guy and every few orbits the old bird has to reach into the wallet again, i am doing well and he now is just buying chips at 200 a clip from me. I really feel bad, he just didnt know how to play. So enter the Asian kid, so maybe he is LAG b/c he's a kid, but i think not. Preflop it went 2 bets. flop came off all spades, these two start firing at eachother and it went 3 bets. turn was the fourth spade, and the bird had about 210 in front of him. the kid had a bunch o loot cause the table didnt adjust to his overaggression. when the 4th spade hit, an all out raising war ensued. they kept popping eachother relentlessly, most absurd display of poker i had seen in my short career. I think it was around 12 reraises, when someone said this deck has to be screwed up and have two aces, i whisper to the man, you got the ace right? he says of course. the kid raised into him until his entire stack was in the center when the bb was 10$, the kid had the Ks......WTF

[daryn]

ok, i guess i'm racist.

let the world know it! daryn is a racist! because i feel that given an asian man and a white man, both in a poker room, the asian man is more likely to be a gambler.

what a racist i am!


next thing i will hear from you guys is since i believe you're more likely to find an electron at a lower energy level than a higher one i must somehow be predjudiced against electrons, or energy, or both.

[Kenrick]

Another opinion on the subject: a buddy of mine has gambled at casinos all over the country, and he'll tell you flat-out that asians in a casino are more likely to be big gamblers and put faith in luck and superstition etc than other people. Note I say this is for ones who are gamblers, not necessarily the typical asian in general.

Whether that stereotype is true or not, I'm surprised at a couple of the responses in this thread. For people who rely on statistics and probabilities to win at this game, they apparently throw out statistics and probabilities when it comes to racial profiling and stereotypes.

[daryn]

another thing that i guess needs to be said, i don't really go out of my way to make assumptions about players. i believe what i stated earlier, but if i'm in a game, i just play according to what i see.

[oddjob]

well at least you can admit it. i'm sure if that's your attitude, then if you see a white man and a black man, then you must think that the black man is more likely to be a criminal.

and yes, i know you're trying to be sarcastic.

[ QUOTE ]
ok, i guess i'm racist.

let the world know it! daryn is a racist! because i feel that given an asian man and a white man, both in a poker room, the asian man is more likely to be a gambler.

what a racist i am!


next thing i will hear from you guys is since i believe you're more likely to find an electron at a lower energy level than a higher one i must somehow be predjudiced against electrons, or energy, or both.



[/ QUOTE ]

[daryn]

it's one thing to be racist (or sexist, agist?) but it's another thing to deny facts.

if you see a woman and a man together in the poker room, which of the two is more likely:

A) the man is a poker player, the woman is his wife/girlfriend

B) the woman is a poker player, the man is her husband/boyfriend

if you have to even think about it, you're kidding yourself. but whoa! if you answer correctly (A), then all of a sudden you are sexist? that's just dumb. we're talking probability here..

can anyone deny this sensibly?

[Homer]

I pretty much agree with everything you've said in this thread.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
it's one thing to be racist (or sexist, agist?) but it's another thing to deny facts.

if you see a woman and a man together in the poker room, which of the two is more likely:

A) the man is a poker player, the woman is his wife/girlfriend

B) the woman is a poker player, the man is her husband/boyfriend

if you have to even think about it, you're kidding yourself. but whoa! if you answer correctly (A), then all of a sudden you are sexist? that's just dumb. we're talking probability here..

can anyone deny this sensibly?

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem here with all these arguments is Culture. Culture is NOT race, is NOT gender, is NOT skin color. I will go out on a limb and say that people of Asian culture are more likely to be looser gamblers (if they gamble in the first place). This is much different from saying that people who are Asian (like myself) are more likely to be looser gamblers. Just looking at skin color isn't going to tell you whether or not I'm Asian or Asian-American, but looking at the way I dress, listening to the way I talk and watching how I act certainly would.

Along these lines, if you saw a man and a woman, and the woman was wearing a poker hat/jacket and walked confidently up to the floorman, while the man was kind of spaced out, I'd go with choice B. However, if you were to see typical people walking around, I'd make choice A. It's not sexist, but it's a cultural observation. And like all observations of this type, these aren't always going to be accurate.

[daryn]

ok, how about this statement

an asian man is more likely to live according to asian CULTURE than a white man.

now put this together with what was previously said and you'll finally agree with me.

[daryn]

thanks, i pretty much agree with most things you say as well.. not because of some secret alliance, but due to the simple fact that what you say usually makes sense.

[Ulysses]

I think it's important to note than in a number of posts where people say "Asians are likely to be loose-aggressive gamblers" there's an implied "Asians (who go to the casino and play poker) are likely to be loose-aggressive gamblers."

Whether one actually makes that distinction or not says a bit about whether one is likely to have some racist tendencies or not.

[oddjob]

wow, so statistically, the statement i said about white and blacks you must believe, because statistically it makes sense.

how about c) there's a couple, i wonder if either of them will sit down and play poker, because i'd like to take their money, cause i'm a good player.

spoken like a true middle class white male. if you've ever been pigeonholed in a negative fashion then maybe your line of thinking wouldn't be so stereotyping.

it's not even really the racsim or sexism i have a problem with, it's your attitude. your attitude towards everyone and everything sucks. you always have to be right and you always feel the need to cut down people as it goes, and not even in a good humored way. i'm not really sure if this is your way of trying to be funny, or if your daddy was never happy with you growing up so you're trying to make it up here or whatever.

what i would like to know is if you're an _______ all the time, or just here. i'm sure you have some remarkable reply that will contribute absolutely nothing to anything.

i'm not even sure why i'm replying cause nothing anyone will ever say to you will ever be really heard by you. it's just more fuel for your _________ remarks.

good luck

[ QUOTE ]
it's one thing to be racist (or sexist, agist?) but it's another thing to deny facts.

if you see a woman and a man together in the poker room, which of the two is more likely:

A) the man is a poker player, the woman is his wife/girlfriend

B) the woman is a poker player, the man is her husband/boyfriend

if you have to even think about it, you're kidding yourself. but whoa! if you answer correctly (A), then all of a sudden you are sexist? that's just dumb. we're talking probability here..

can anyone deny this sensibly?

[/ QUOTE ]

[daryn]

i'm not sure what to say... i just express opinions, that's all. evidently some agree with me, and some don't. i don't insult those who don't, at least that's not my intention.

does anyone else find it ironic that he is berating me for predisposed opinions on people, yet in his post he says "spoken like a true middle class white male", and even goes so far as to suggest some traumatic relationship i may have had with my father?

i love two plus two!

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
ok, how about this statement

an asian man is more likely to live according to asian CULTURE than a white man.

now put this together with what was previously said and you'll finally agree with me.



[/ QUOTE ]

It's not that I wasn't agreeing with you, but just to point out a subtle difference that seems to be missed among many who equate culture with race with religion, etc.

No problems here /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[daryn]

none here either.. ulysses made a good point that i thought was implied. if i see an asian man on the street, i don't think for a second that he is more or less likely to be a gambler than anyone else.

[oddjob]

no i made a judgement based on what i have read in your post and many other posts i have read of yours. if you can't make a judgment based on a person's thoughts and opinions, then you certainly shouldn't be able to do it by a man and a woman and an asian in a poker room. which reminds me of a joke i heard once.

and your opinions are those of a middle class white male who has probably never had to experience racism, stereotyping, judgements or related negatives that those of different race, culture, sexual preference, or gender have.

so where's the irony?

the father comment was just my way of pointing out that i have no idea where your poor attitude has come from. perhaps it was learned, perhaps it's psycological, perhaps it was just born in you.

and i find it very disturbing that you write off your ______ remarks as just being your opinion. there are just posts i seem to recall in the past of yours, that i could only take as being negative for no good reason.

but whatever, it's done, and i'm sure no one cares.

[lefty rosen]

This stereotype is about east asian players. west asians don't play like this at all, oh sorry right more stereotyping..........

[lefty rosen]

You have a point Asia is a huge continent with diverse people, culturally, racially and religioulsy. Saying that because you see the regular hundred maniacs of this ethnic group stereotypes the whole continent is a joke......

[NMcNasty]

Its a simple observation. However, sometimes we make false observations based on repressed racism. For example, you might secretly hate Asians which would make you more likely to imagine them using a faulty poker style.

[daryn]

i really only ask you one question.. please give it an answer. A, B, or C will do.


if you see a woman and a man together in the poker room, which of the two is more likely:

A) the man is a poker player, the woman is his wife/girlfriend

B) the woman is a poker player, the man is her husband/boyfriend

C) neither situation is more or less likely than the other


realize that i am really only saying that A is true, and i believe it is. if you don't want to believe it, that's ok, but i consider that as crazy as not believing 2+2=4

[daryn]

let it be known that all i really want in the world is to be with an asian woman /images/graemlins/grin.gif

someday

[M2d]

I'm japanese, and in protest of something or other I checked "pacific islander" on an ethnic identity poll. I figured: japan's an island and not physically connected to asia, so it can't be Asian...Japan's in the pacific...I must be a pacific Islander.

[Kenrick]

[ QUOTE ]

spoken like a true middle class white male. if you've ever been pigeonholed in a negative fashion then maybe your line of thinking wouldn't be so stereotyping.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't believe that *some* stereotypes became stereotypes because they are statistically true, then you are not being honest with yourself, nor with those who you imply or call racists.

There was a TV show, "Profiler." The hot chick on there solved murders by profiling people. That's what agencies do to help solve cases. If you think they profile people just to piss certain people off instead of because it may help solve a case, then I don't know what to tell you about the statistics and probabilities involved in playing poker. I wish people would stop stereotyping AA as being the best hand; just because statistics say it's "usually" the best hand doesn't mean it should be stereotyped that way.

[Skeeter281]

According to Caro, Asians are typically one extreme or the other; either big gamblers or rocks. He also says you should play according to stereotypes until you have info that says you should play differently. If its good enough for him, its good enough for me. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[oddjob]

you're right, cops could never be racist. what was i thinking.

and the fact that you use the phrase "that hot chick" to describe someone makes me think that you are probably a very closed minded person. wake up and smell your own biased mentality.

hey, if you feel that your stereotyping helps your game, then so be it, i can't argue against that. but at least be honest about it, don't call yourself a waste management engineer when you're just a janitor.

[deacsoft]

Good point. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[tpir90036]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone has opinions on how certain races or age groups act when it comes to _______..... I would expect them to be very tight with their money.

[/ QUOTE ]

dictionary time:
racism - The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability.

so technically by saying "i think [insert race] is more/less [insert trait]" you are being dictionary racist. but in the real world, the term racist has malice and prejudice lumped in with it. it doesn't sound like you have any hatred or superiority claims in your statement....so while the dictionary might say you made a racist statement.... i think you were just making an observation and pointing out a stereotype that you find to be true in your experience.

it's a slippery slope...

[daryn]

you are head of airport security. one day you are at work and you notice about 15 clearly arab guys boarding a plane. are you going to honestly tell me you would be no more or less suspicious than if it was 15 white/black guys.

just be honest with yourself

[oddjob]

[ QUOTE ]
it's a slippery slope...

[/ QUOTE ]

who you calling a slope? heh

[Kenrick]

[ QUOTE ]
you're right, cops could never be racist. what was i thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course cops can be racist. Just like you or anyone else can be. I don't know what your point is here.

[ QUOTE ]

and the fact that you use the phrase "that hot chick" to describe someone makes me think that you are probably a very closed minded person. wake up and smell your own biased mentality.



[/ QUOTE ]

*laugh* I put that in there because I knew it'd push your buttons and you'd comment on it and try to make it into some terrible thing to say. I was curious to see how serious you would take it and yourself and how you would then attack me because of it. You took a minor, throw-away comment and snowballed that into calling me closed-minded and biased. This tells me quite a bit about your attitude and thought process.

I also considered using "hot babe" instead. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

It's pretty obvious you are very passionate about topics such as this, but I think that passion and emotion is clouding the use of logic, statistics, and probability on the matter. For someone who doesn't like stereotyping or describing people in poor terms, you certainly do a lot of it. Your comments to Daryn have been some of the harshest in this entire thread. I'm surprised you haven't apologized to him yet, actually. I'm also still waiting for you to answer his last A/B/C question.

[oddjob]

yes, and i responded in this way because i wanted to see what your response was, and it's obvious that... blah blah blah.

yah right. who do you think you're fooling.

it's all about respect for me. i try to give everyone respect until they give me reason not to. my judgement of daryn is from reading how he responds to others and his attitude. and my assessment is that he doesn't necessarily deserve nor want other's respect. i'm sure he's heart broken over it. so any response from me will be taken as bullshit. if i go ahead and answer, i believe C, then he will think i'm full of it.

obviously it's a difference in opinions. you may think that racial profiling is in no way being biased. i believe it is. we'll probably never convince each other, otherwise, so there's really no point in my responding to Daryn

as for the cops comments, i don't understand where you're confused. you stated that cops use racial profiling as a means to do their job. perhaps that's why so many minorities are unrightfully targeted when it comes to crimes. perhaps that's why minorities suffer harsher sentences in similar crimes. perhaps that's why a couple black guys will get pulled over for no reason, while a couple white guys will not. but i guess statistically speaking they probably had it coming.

but whatever. this argument will go on forever, and it's not really doing anything. so you're right. how about that. you're right and we drop the whole thing. us chinks play real crazy loose.

[daryn]

the point i'm trying to make here is it's not an opinion! in my A B C question, A is the correct answer. if you want, you could go across the country and actually perform this experiment, keeping track of your results, and you will find that A is correct! so i say to you sir, if you answer C you are either kidding yourself (let's hope you're not) or you are wrong.

[fireman664]

CULTURALLY certain ethnic groups TEND to differ. THAT is a fact, anytime you assume ALL persons of a group are a certain way based on this fact, is stereotyping. Observing the play of any ethnic group, and then stereotyping it to another of that group is fine IMO, although it might cost you some money (or make you some if your assumption was correct).

[Kenrick]

[ QUOTE ]
yes, and i responded in this way because i wanted to see what your response was, and it's obvious that... blah blah blah.

yah right. who do you think you're fooling.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no need to fool anyone. I am too old and too tired to bother with fooling or impressing people. But if it makes you feel better, I've studied human behavior and communication theory and things for years, as well as have a degree in the subject -- not that I think much of degrees. You can infer a lot about people based on little things. Look at how I type, spell, and punctuate compared to how you do, for instance. Things can be inferred from that; part of a profile can be made.

If you didn't think I knew you'd probably attack me for "hot chick" after you had shown such hostility already, then you should probably re-read your posts a couple weeks from now and see how hostile you come across as. Or have a third party read your posts and tell you what they think. Like I said, it's pretty obvious you are passionate about the subject.

However, being passionate about something has its drawbacks when trying to see clearly in an objective manner. OF COURSE certain kinds of profiling is racially biased. It'd be similar to arguing that men and women are the same, which they are not. It's common sense that, on average, a Native American would know more about some things or act in a certain manner than a white guy might. Is that biased? I suppose. Biased in a bad way? No. It's simply reality.

America is the greatest place on Earth in part because there are so many different kinds of people. Cultures and localities play a big part in how people are different, but most cultures and localities tend to have similar types of people living in them, too. The world may be "biased," but that's not necessarily a bad thing. It just is. People are lying to themselves when they try to pretend that everyone is the same. That's not a bad thing to wish for, but it's simply not true. People are different, and that's what makes the world interesting.

Being hateful due to differences is not the same as merely acknowledging differences.

Hopefully you can see with the cops and black person example... yes, there is stereotype and bias there. That's the point! I'm not arguing that those things are good or bad or that they should be used to arrest a black guy instead of a white guy; I'm only arguing that they exist!

And, yes, if you answered "C," I'd think you're full of it. Or at least full of wishful thinking.

But what do I know. I'm biased and closed-minded.

Have a nice day.

[b33nz]

No this isn't racist. You are just being sterotypical (this is in no means to try to offend you). Some people just look at a group of people the same way.

For example: Some men think that women don't have any say in the poker world and will usually try to humiliate them verbally and through playing poker. They will get more sluggish playing weaker hands and bluffing more just to prove they are better than women.

[PokerBob]

Yes, it is racist, as any generalization based on race is racist.

That is not to say that your statement is malicious or mean spirited, which clearly is not your intent.

I have experienced the same thing. MANY Asians are loose-aggresive. That doesn't make them bad people or immoral, just like it doesn't make me a bad person or immoral to say that the majority of Asian players I have encountered are LAG's.

My advice would be to allow your opponents play dictate how you peg them, not their skin color.

[Punker]

Unlike most opinions, if this one is incorrect, the person you would allegedly be offending by holding it will directly extract the penalty for your error.

[RPatterson]

In my limited B&M experience I have noticed Asians playing more loose agressive than whites, on average. Apparently I'm ignorant and racist because of this lol. Or I'm imagining it because I secretly hate Asian people so much that I convince myself they are more likely to be loose agressive. Sucks to be me.

[PaulC]

Now i've probably got this thread wrong but......

I know a few Chinese that like a bet... and it's the high odds/risky bets they favour. They also seem to have the attitude that the adrenalin of the bet is a good payback whether they win or lose - but it is soooo sweet when they win, and they enter the bet with that expectation. They can be very cool characters and I admire them for that. These are my personal observations of a few individuals.

In a casino or on-line poker game i would expect that the people there are the subset of those that like to gamble - I've met lots of people of all races that don't. Those who see it as too risky wouldn't even enter, so i'm narrowing things down right there, no? It would also be true to say that *anyone* who gambles is a risk taker (though some rightly work hard to minimise/eliminate their risk) and thus a possible LAG.

I'm not sure that the general gambling tendencies of their particular race/culture is helping me much so far however since I also know others of different so-called races who gamble much the same. Even the Scots whose stereotype is to be tight.

Are my Chinese friends more likely to be LAGs at a poker table. Yes probably given that they like a big payoff risky bet, BUT they don't tend to like playing poker since there are types of players that won't always let them play their highest stakes possible stab in the dark bets by folding.... so they don't ever win enough fast enough and toddle off to the roulette wheel. (Note this is a small subset of a huge population... so you can't really take this as universally applicable either, and they may be like that because they all know each other). They also probably think (I'm not sure I'll have to ask them) that poker guys are all timid parlour game players who'll never make money being so scared to call a big bet.

In my opinion the worst thing that can happen is you assume wrong... just like every other player you meet. So how does this supposed reading based on culture help?

I don't think it does.

[IlliniRyRy]

Frequently, minorities have many friends among their own race and I think if they spend a lot of time around each other, they will have the same playing habits.