river check-raise with 2nd pair

[nykenny]

Pre-Flop : UTG limps, I limp with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif9/images/graemlins/heart.gif. Game is mild so far. MP fish (sucking out, over play) calls. BB checks.

Flop: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif8/images/graemlins/spade.gif check to me I bet. MP Fish calls. BB calls.

Turn: 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif check to me I bet. MP fish calls. BB folds.

River: K:clubs: I check. MP Fish bets. I raise.

thoughts?

- Kenny

[astroglide]

you won?

[DeucesUp]

I like it.

I definitely think the river check to induce bluffs is a nice play. Even fish will lay down marginal hands if they think their up against trips (they don't realize the K on river actually improves the chances that their smaller pair is good). The raise on the end is a bit thin, but from this type of opponent I think you do have some value there. He'll probably call your check-raise with a weaker 9 or an 8 or smaller PP (you gotta love the fish), but probably not with a busted draw.

I wasn't quite sure whether your opponent was a over-aggressive fish or a calling-station fish (since "over-play" sort of suggests over-aggressive, while "sucking out" is more often associated with calling stations). If he's the over-aggressive type then this is a great play because his lack of a raise anywhere pretty much guarantees he doesn't have a K and you know he'll take a stab at the pot with anything when that scare card comes and you show weakness. If he's the calling station type, he might very well have played a weak K like this, but you can take comfort that if he's too timid to raise the flop, then he's not going to 3-bet you on the river either. The calling station is also more likely to check-through a losing hand on the river which he would have called a bet with.

[Nightwish]

You played it fine throughout the hand up to the check-raise on the river. Obviously, that's the critical move in this hand, and I'm not sure I like it. The river check is automatic because you'd like to induce a bet from a busted diamond draw or an 8 (I'm assuming he won't call with an 8 if you bet into him). However, what is the value of the raise? If he's bluffing, he will fold, so your raise won't be called. Will he call with a weaker 9, like T9 or something like that? Maybe, but I don't know if it's often enough to offset all the other times when he'll re-raise you with a K and you'll be forced to fold.

I'm not saying your river check-raise was necessarily bad. But what I am saying is that if there is any value in it, it is so thin that it's not worth the increase in variance.

[Steve Giufre]

Is he really bad enough to call with a worse hand here?

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
You played it fine throughout the hand up to the check-raise on the river. Obviously, that's the critical move in this hand, and I'm not sure I like it. The river check is automatic because you'd like to induce a bet from a busted diamond draw or an 8 (I'm assuming he won't call with an 8 if you bet into him). However, what is the value of the raise? If he's bluffing, he will fold, so your raise won't be called. Will he call with a weaker 9, like T9 or something like that? Maybe, but I don't know if it's often enough to offset all the other times when he'll re-raise you with a K and you'll be forced to fold.

I'm not saying your river check-raise was necessarily bad. But what I am saying is that if there is any value in it, it is so thin that it's not worth the increase in variance.

[/ QUOTE ]
My opponent called after a long pause. My hand was good. My read is that he had a weak 9 or an ok 8, either way he played bad. I didn't bother to check hand history.

Kenny

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
I like it.

I definitely think the river check to induce bluffs is a nice play. Even fish will lay down marginal hands if they think their up against trips (they don't realize the K on river actually improves the chances that their smaller pair is good). The raise on the end is a bit thin, but from this type of opponent I think you do have some value there. He'll probably call your check-raise with a weaker 9 or an 8 or smaller PP (you gotta love the fish), but probably not with a busted draw.

I wasn't quite sure whether your opponent was a over-aggressive fish or a calling-station fish (since "over-play" sort of suggests over-aggressive, while "sucking out" is more often associated with calling stations). If he's the over-aggressive type then this is a great play because his lack of a raise anywhere pretty much guarantees he doesn't have a K and you know he'll take a stab at the pot with anything when that scare card comes and you show weakness. If he's the calling station type, he might very well have played a weak K like this, but you can take comfort that if he's too timid to raise the flop, then he's not going to 3-bet you on the river either. The calling station is also more likely to check-through a losing hand on the river which he would have called a bet with.

[/ QUOTE ]
in here i mean,

"over play" = won't just call with top pair
"sucking out" = goes far with any remote hand

hence the check-raise on the river. oh btw, he is kinda aggressive, so i was pretty sure he'd either bet busted draw to bluff or bet some weak hand for value.

Kenny