Little and large.

[1800GAMBLER]

Prima's crackhouse. $1/$2 blinds. 6 max. All players unknown, i have them all covered.

UTG min raises his small stack. I make it $14 to go with KK. SB, BB call and UTG calls.

Flop:

Q 9 2 raindow, very pretty.

Pot: ~ $60

BB ($200, coldcalled preflop) bets out for $6. UTG (Has about $30 left, the preflop min raiser) min raises it to $12. I call.

Turn:

Q

BB (big stack) checks, UTG (small stack) pushes in for ~$20 and i fold.

[Nero]

I would like the flop call alot more if the big stack and small stacks positions were reversed, trapping the big stack and not myself. Acting after the better and before the big stack make me more inclined to atleast pop the flop to find out where im at in relation to the big stack, getting the small stack in and then slowing down on the turn if called. As played, nice turn fold.

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
I would like the flop call alot more if the big stack and small stacks positions were reversed, trapping the big stack and not myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

The position of stacks so the sole reason i called. If i pop it now the big stack is folding a hell of a lot of hands that i could easily keep in and stack on the turn.

If positions were reserved i'm more likely to raise as i'm likely to keep the BB in now.

I think we are crossing wires on you are giving a lot of credit to me being behind here. BB's likely holdings are QK AQ here. Then 99 but a lot less likely because he bet out, it's not the done thing online.

[josie_wales]

Jay

Good laydown. One thing that I have learned in my short NL career is that I dont like to put it all (or a lot) on the line with One pair.

JW

[Nero]

[ QUOTE ]
The position of stacks so the sole reason i called. If i pop it now the big stack is folding a hell of a lot of hands that i could easily keep in and stack on the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't think the flat call was bad. I just would rather have the turn(on a brick) go something like short-stack pushes and then the big-stack acts, I then get to react after seeing this. I just dont like giving up position with this hand in this situation.

[ QUOTE ]
If positions were reserved i'm more likely to raise as i'm likely to keep the BB in now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would your raise now be more likely to keep him in? Either he likes his AQ/KQ enough to stay in against a PFR's flop bet or he doesn't. He either bet out here planning to dump/stay to aggression, or would have called dumping/staying to aggression if the spots were switched. Am I missing something here?

[ QUOTE ]
I think we are crossing wires on you are giving a lot of credit to me being behind here. BB's likely holdings are QK AQ here. Then 99 but a lot less likely because he bet out, it's not the done thing online.


[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think your behind here at all on the flop. 99 either comes out stronger or not at all. I would just like to keep position on the big stack. I think you played this OK, they are likely drawing to 5-6 outs combined and by building a pot this way you can more easily get the big -stack in the middle w/TPTK.

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would your raise now be more likely to keep him in? Either he likes his AQ/KQ enough to stay in against a PFR's flop bet or he doesn't. He either bet out here planning to dump/stay to aggression, or would have called dumping/staying to aggression if the spots were switched. Am I missing something here?


[/ QUOTE ]

If he was acting 2nd he would have been the 2nd person betting, and just have one 'stage' to call. If he acts first, he bets, gets raised, then the raiser gets raised, a lot easier for him to dump.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

and you played wimpily on the flop because why? you were after all faced with two wimp bets....

al

[1800GAMBLER]

Playing it with balls: I'd be $30 dollars richer which would at the most buy some porn or a STD from a hooker.

Playing with with no balls 83%: i'm $230 richer which means i'll be more drunk tomorrow, less likely to wake up in my own bed and less likely to have an STD.

Playing with no balls 17%: I win nothing; i stay here talking poker.

So, not that i don't love STDs and sat here, but that's why i played it like that.

[scrub]

Yeah, I think you've got to make it $60 here on the flop.

Mostly because players who make that EP wuss bet need to be punished. Many of them do it to try to get a cheap card. There's a decent pot right now, it will be more decent when you stack the small stack the times he doesn't have you beat, and you're unlikely to get any more money out of wuss EP bet guy unless he hits whatever weird out he's looking to hit cheap. So make him pay to call down with his crappy Q, or find out that you might need to be worried now, rather than on the turn in an artificially large pot thanks to the obligatory small stack push.

scrub

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
Many of them do it to try to get a cheap card.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have 1/4 of his outs /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I don't agree about your opinion on the min bets always looking for a cheap card either, sometimes, they are looking for information from the preflop raiser too because of there crap QK holding.

[Nero]

[ QUOTE ]
If he was acting 2nd he would have been the 2nd person betting, and just have one 'stage' to call. If he acts first, he bets, gets raised, then the raiser gets raised, a lot easier for him to dump.

[/ QUOTE ]

If your going to get cute like this why not min-raise the small-stack? The big-stack will like call the $12, small-stack will push and re-open the betting to you. Not saying plays like this dont have merit, my betting hand usually beats my brain to the pot in these instances.

[scrub]

If he has a clue you don't have any of his outs.

If he doesn't have a clue, then he could be looking for almost any paint to go with his sooooooooooted Q. Or he could be praying that you missed your AK v. his JJ/TT. He could also have 9Ts or JTs. Hell, even 9To or JTo.

The guy either wants to see a street cheaply or he's getting cute with a monster. Either way, you're not the one doing the trapping. You're the one begging to get sucked out on in a pot that's already 30BB and will likely net you another 15BB from the small stack.

scrub

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
If he has a clue you don't have any of his outs.


[/ QUOTE ]

Him not having a clue if i have his outs or not doesn't change the fact that me having his outs makes it more unlikely they are going to fall. Again, if it is the unlikely case he has JT.

[ QUOTE ]
Or he could be praying that you missed your AK v. his JJ/TT. He could also have 9Ts or JTs. Hell, even 9To or JTo.


[/ QUOTE ]

Aren't all those hands apart from J,x reasons for calling? ... even possibily J,x are reasons for calling.

[ QUOTE ]
The guy either wants to see a street cheaply or he's getting cute with a monster

[/ QUOTE ]

... or he's betting for information.

[ QUOTE ]
You're the one begging to get sucked out on in a pot that's already 30BB and will likely net you another 15BB from the small stack.


[/ QUOTE ]

Again you see the worst case.

[1800GAMBLER]

As the results happened. Big stack checkcalled the small stacks all in with AQ. Small stack had AQ. On these results i played it perfectly and they had less outs than i imagined.

P.s. I think results matter in this case bcause the range of hands they can hold here is so small.

[Nero]

[ QUOTE ]
As the results happened. Big stack checkcalled the small stacks all in with AQ. Small stack had AQ. On these results i played it perfectly and they had less outs than i imagined.

P.s. I think results matter in this case bcause the range of hands they can hold here is so small.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would argue the big-stack was never forced to make a mistake here. He saw the turn for $12 in a ~$90 pot and you let him set the price.

If he's not the type to stack off on the flop with TPTK, it probably not going in on the turn either if he doesn't improve. I still don't get your reasoning behind playing the hand the way you did. How exactly does playing it like this win me more $$$?

[Wardfish]

I cant see why you wouldnt raise to say $50-60 on the flop and proceed from there.

6-handed an overpair looks pretty good when theres a reasonable amount of money in pre-flop, as long as the stacks are not massive (which they are not). Not raising gives top-pair w/ overcard kicker a cheap shot at the pot.

Obviously a lot depends on your playing style (+ knowledge of opponents). Short-handed I prefer to put people to the test rather than wait for a monster flop.

[scrub]

It doesn't.

scrub

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]

I would argue the big-stack was never forced to make a mistake here. He saw the turn for $12 in a ~$90 pot and you let him set the price.

[/ QUOTE ]

If i reraise here the big stack gets the chance to make a mistake, sure. Probably the same level of mistake as spelling your name wrong on your degree tests. It's one hell of a hard mistake to make.

I really couldn't imagine many players calling with AQ here after it's been raised preflop and then '3 bet' post flop. He'll be given a chance to make the mistake on the turn, when it's more costly, more important and easier to make.

He becomes pot commited on the turn.

Right now in his mind he has $6 dollars in a $70 pot and it's been raised twice ahead of him.

Why do people slowplay hands untill the turn?

[ QUOTE ]
I cant see why you wouldnt raise to say $50-60 on the flop and proceed from there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because if i raise to $50 i feel the big stack will fold all the hands i can beat and call with the hands that have me beat. That's not what i want.

[Nero]

[ QUOTE ]
If i reraise here the big stack gets the chance to make a mistake, sure. Probably the same level of mistake as spelling your name wrong on your degree tests. It's one hell of a hard mistake to make

[/ QUOTE ]

So he good enough to get away from AQ here, but will be emotionally tied to the pot by that extra $6 hes got to put in?

[ QUOTE ]
I really couldn't imagine many players calling with AQ here after it's been raised preflop and then '3 bet' post flop. He'll be given a chance to make the mistake on the turn, when it's more costly, more important and easier to make.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he won't make this mistake on the flop he won't on the turn. Is he going to put you on KQ or JJ when you come to life on the turn? He cant be good enough to get away from this hand on the flop yet bad enough to stack off on the turn unimproved.

[ QUOTE ]
He becomes pot commited on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

How? I think your right here but you could have just as easily got it in on the flop. He coldcalled $14 PF w/AQ and hit. He likes this flop. I really don't see a compelling argument to play this hand this way.

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
He cant be good enough to get away from this hand on the flop yet bad enough to stack off on the turn unimproved.


[/ QUOTE ]

You'd be very surprised. I can imagine lots of players on prima/party/empire fitting that bill.

Just a quick run down though.

I think he's more likely to hold AQ than QK than JT.

I think he's more likely to fold on the flop than on the turn.

He could have very little outs, even at most he's slim to improve on the next street.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

A cryptic and clever, if results-oriented remark.

Play with some balls! you had it on the flop, what came on the turn is irrelevant to how you played the flop. you A)have to charge them out the ass to hit their 5 outer draw, and B) may have won it with a big raise. But then I think you really did know this already.

Tho B seems less likely it does not diminish the significance of A.

al

[mauisupaman]

Jay,
I duuno. I think with a smaller pot I'd be more inclined to play it as you did. But here you have a pretty good sized pot and I'd actually WANT to push out the big stack, get the small stack to go all in, kick back and watch the turn and river dealt out. I mean you've got a total of 3 other guys with you on the flop, and again the pot's big enough for me to try and get it heads up especially with a small stack.

A hui hou,
Adam

[Wardfish]

Jay,

You appear convinced your play of this hand is +EV, so lets agree to disagree on that one.

But what about the follow-through move? ie. you raise pre-flop, get 1 or 2 callers, they check (or bet small) and you pot-bet (or raise).

Under what circumstances do you make this play? Is this not one of those situations?

It seems to me that 6-handed against solid players you are missing profit-making situations playing raised pots (in good position) the way you advocate.

I also wonder what your raising requirements are in position after a couple of limpers.