Bubble question

[freemont]

I was wondering if someone could share their strategy for playing hands on the bubble (4 or 5 left) in SNGs. I'm pretty confident in my tight strategy early on, but I've had so many freaking 4th and 5ths lately it's driving me crazy. I'm just starting back on SNGs and only have played 30-40 of them (PP 50+5) initially I was doing well, but after this streak I'm down slightly. I realize my sample is REALLY small at this point, but I want to fix this potential problem now rather than waiting to make sure it isn't just a bad run...

Some questions I have:

If I'm big stack, but not HUGE (30-40% of total chips) should I simply chill until someone goes out and then kick it into gear? Usually I like to stay aggressive, last night my stack got kicked from big to short in two hands as a result of agressively playing two low PPs from Button and UTG and losing the ensuing coinflips. Perhaps it was the hands I chose to raise with since the best I can hope for is a coin flip if called. Should I muck the low pps and wait for Ax for my aggressive plays? (when chip leader)

If you're on the average/below average but not short stack how aggressive should I be? Obviously I want to avoid going against the big stack if there is one, but say everyone is roughly equal (say 30%-20% of the chips)

What should my raise ammount be? Does it change if the blinds get really high? Last night we were still on 4 people up until the 400-800 level, and most people were getting by with doubling the blinds, but to me it seemed that gives 3.5 to 1 on a call from the BB, so I was still trying to go 2.5x, 3x, or pushed (before I had built up a reasonable stack.)

Short stack I'm comfortable with pushing on my best hand before it gets too late and hoping for the best. But maybe I could improve here as I generally push if the next trip through the blinds will take off more than 40% of my stack? (although sometimes when dealt utter crap UTG I just can't bring myself to do it and hope that sometime in the next 4 I can get at least K high...)

Thanks in advanced.

[t_perkin]

what sort of buyins are you playing?

Tim

[freemont]

Party poker 50+5$

[t_perkin]

Ok I am just a 30+3 player so I am still with only 800 starting chips.

[ QUOTE ]

If I'm big stack, but not HUGE (30-40% of total chips) should I simply chill until someone goes out and then kick it into gear? Usually I like to stay aggressive, last night my stack got kicked from big to short in two hands as a result of agressively playing two low PPs from Button and UTG and losing the ensuing coinflips. Perhaps it was the hands I chose to raise with since the best I can hope for is a coin flip if called. Should I muck the low pps and wait for Ax for my aggressive plays? (when chip leader)


[/ QUOTE ]

If it is late in the tournament then push people around, esp. if the table is on the tight side. But you need to be watching more carefully for this, not one to do too aggressively if you play multiple tables.
If it is still early then probably just best to sit tight. It's all too easy to see that stack dribble away.

[ QUOTE ]

If you're on the average/below average but not short stack how aggressive should I be? Obviously I want to avoid going against the big stack if there is one, but say everyone is roughly equal (say 30%-20% of the chips)


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Not quite sure about what this means
"but say everyone is roughly equal (say 30%-20% of the chips)"

Just stay tight aggressive, bully a bit when the blinds just increase and you feel everyone is in the mood for sitting tight. If people are trying to push each other around then just sit tight.


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What should my raise ammount be? Does it change if the blinds get really high? Last night we were still on 4 people up until the 400-800 level, and most people were getting by with doubling the blinds, but to me it seemed that gives 3.5 to 1 on a call from the BB, so I was still trying to go 2.5x, 3x, or pushed (before I had built up a reasonable stack.)


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most raises should be 3xBB or min 2.5xBB. The usual applies: if it is gonna be 40% of your stack going in then just push in. If you think you can get away with stealing with 2BB then give it a go. Just don't get sucked in with a steal hand, even if you are sure someone is trying to resteal.

[ QUOTE ]

Short stack I'm comfortable with pushing on my best hand before it gets too late and hoping for the best. But maybe I could improve here as I generally push if the next trip through the blinds will take off more than 40% of my stack? (although sometimes when dealt utter crap UTG I just can't bring myself to do it and hope that sometime in the next 4 I can get at least K high...)


[/ QUOTE ]

Look at stack sizes. Look for good opportunities to steal.
Say the stacks are: You=800, 1200, 1200, All the rest.
If the blinds are 200/400 and you are UTG and have the big stack on the SB I would steal. button will fold - scared of the big stack,
If Big stack has crap he will fold, he doesn't need to call you here and risk the BB moving in as well.
The BB needs something good to call, you are still going to cripple the BBs stack if you win.

Just one example. Basically you really need to put yourselves in their shoes and think about the fact that althoguh you are only a small stack you can still push around other smallish stacks when the blinds are largish.

Just some thoughts...

Tim

[freemont]

Thanks Tim, you reinforced a lot of what I thought and gave me a few new things to think about. Mainly I've just been frustrated by the run of semi-bad luck, and wanted to make sure I wasn't being too aggressive or anything, especially with those low pairs. They really can be a trap though, since an all in reraise is likely to lay odds for a call, but any two overcards are slightly less than 50-50 and if you lose the race he double up, and most likely puts you into the short stack... I guess it is a risk I should be willing to take in the name of staying aggressive, just frustrated by losing a number of races in a row...

[hockey1]

I was struggling with the same question a while back and a post I read here (maybe one of Fossilman's) helped me a lot. What I took from it was (a) aggression is good, but (b) the application of your aggressiveness is VERY player dependent. Observe your opponents. Figure out who's playing tight and who's playing lots of hands and, in particular, who's not abiding by the gap concept -- i.e., who's going to fold to your raise with anything short of a Group 1 hand and who's gonna call. Then play position and stack size as much as your cards to pick up blinds.

[ThaSaltCracka]

okay I will give you my two cents fremont.

Now this is how I like to play, so don't assume this is the right way to play. But around the bubble, I try to play a little looser than normal, if I can.

[ QUOTE ]
If I'm big stack, but not HUGE (30-40% of total chips) should I simply chill until someone goes out and then kick it into gear?

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No, you have the most chips, you have the most power on the bubble, use this to your advantage.

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Should I muck the low pps and wait for Ax for my aggressive plays? (when chip leader)

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I would raise with low pp, hoping to steal their blinds. I probably won't cold call someones raise or all in with a pp below 7, but thats just me. As the chip leader I want to push them around, I don't want to double them up. Most short stacks push with marginal hands, frequently, but these are usually low pp, or Ax, Kx. I mean these are essentially coin flips for you if you don't have overcards or high PP.

[ QUOTE ]
If you're on the average/below average but not short stack how aggressive should I be? Obviously I want to avoid going against the big stack if there is one, but say everyone is roughly equal (say 30%-20% of the chips)


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This is when I am most aggresive. I don't enter a pot unless I am raising. I am trying to steal blinds, representing strong cards on any flop. This could get you in trouble, but this could also win you a lot of pots without a showdown.

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What should my raise ammount be? Does it change if the blinds get really high? Last night we were still on 4 people up until the 400-800 level, and most people were getting by with doubling the blinds, but to me it seemed that gives 3.5 to 1 on a call from the BB, so I was still trying to go 2.5x, 3x, or pushed (before I had built up a reasonable stack.)

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I stick to my 3x BB raise pretty much for the entire tourney if I am the first to enter a pot. Regardless of what I am holding. If I am betting preflop, 3xBB, whether I have 99, AK, AA, yadadaaaaa..... even if I am trying to steal its 3xBB. Works pretty well for me.

[ QUOTE ]
Short stack I'm comfortable with pushing on my best hand before it gets too late and hoping for the best. But maybe I could improve here as I generally push if the next trip through the blinds will take off more than 40% of my stack?

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Yeah try a little earlier before it gets to 40%. If you lose or run into a monster , so what. Don't play results. Everybody gets caught stealing once in a while.

Hope this helps!

[Prickly Pete]

[ QUOTE ]
Look at stack sizes. Look for good opportunities to steal.
Say the stacks are: You=800, 1200, 1200, All the rest.
If the blinds are 200/400 and you are UTG and have the big stack on the SB I would steal. button will fold - scared of the big stack,
If Big stack has crap he will fold, he doesn't need to call you here and risk the BB moving in as well.
The BB needs something good to call, you are still going to cripple the BBs stack if you win.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree that as UTG, you need to force the action here and often steal. However, the button shouldn't be too worried about the big stack here. All he has to do is beat the UTG stealer and he guarantees himself a money spot. Besides, if he isolates and beats UTG, he'd be at 2600 and a huge factor in the tourney.

As button, I'm pushing allin as well on a lot of hands.

[chim17]

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No, you have the most chips, you have the most power on the bubble, use this to your advantage.

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Bubble or button? Are you confusing his question?

[t_perkin]

You have the most power on the bubble when you are big stack. people are least willing to take risks here.

You obviously also have most power when you are on the button. Well in almost all circumstances...

Tim

[triplc]

As is many things in poker, your answer simply depends.

Semi-big stack: In this case, I will try to judge my opponents' tightness. If I think that the other three smaller stacks are pretty loose and will take care of one of their own quickly, I'll just sit back and wait for a good opener. If the table is playing the "fold to the BB" game, then I start using that to my advantage and open raise with a lot more hands. Even when you have junk, this can be effective, but you should still vary your play so as not to make the shorter stacks aware that you've just stolen their blinds 8 times in a row.

The other thing I look at is how short the shortest stack is. If the shortest stack is extremely short, then I usually open up considerably because I am pretty sure that making the money should be a pretty good lock for me. If the other stacks still have reasonable power, then I will tighten up more, and wait until they get themselves fighting over a pot or until I get a good opener.

Everybody even: Here I just try to pick the spots where I think I have the best hand, or when I have a good opportunity to steal (tight opponents ahead of me). Throw away the junk, and play the good stuff very aggressively. Remember that everyone is in the same situation as you, and nobody wants to finish fourth, so you can use that to your advantage.

Semi-short stack: I play this almost like having a very short stack. I'm a little more discriminating here than when I am severely shortstacked, and will wait for a better hand, but I'm very likely to simply push in when I have a hand that I want to play. I want to either double through or take the blinds (or...get knocked out). I'm not a big fan of waiting for the 2nd or 3rd stack to mess with the big stack only to find that when I do push in I no longer have a stack that warrants any consideration.

I honestly do try to play the same game when it is 4-handed as when it's 5, 6, or 7 handed, unless I have a clear chip lead, or I think someone will get bounced quickly. It's like an aggressive basketball team that gets a lead, and then decides to sit on the ball. They lose their aggressiveness, the lead dwindles and before you know it, there goes the game.

Play your game, and take what the players at the table will give you.

CCC

[chim17]

[ QUOTE ]
You have the most power on the bubble when you are big stack. people are least willing to take risks here.

You obviously also have most power when you are on the button. Well in almost all circumstances...

Tim

[/ QUOTE ]

It seemed confusing how it was stated, was just clarifying. I didn't see that on the bubble and big stacked were included together.

Thanks for clarification.

[ThaSaltCracka]

Bubble

[ThaSaltCracka]

Triplc,
if you don't mind I would like to add on to what you said, because I like what you wrote.

[ QUOTE ]
Semi-big stack: In this case, I will try to judge my opponents' tightness. If I think that the other three smaller stacks are pretty loose and will take care of one of their own quickly, I'll just sit back and wait for a good opener. If the table is playing the "fold to the BB" game, then I start using that to my advantage and open raise with a lot more hands. Even when you have junk, this can be effective, but you should still vary your play so as not to make the shorter stacks aware that you've just stolen their blinds 8 times in a row.


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I agree that you should wait a couple hands maybe even one orbit to get a feel for the bubble "round". If it is a lot of folds to BB or weak min raises... time to take over!!!
Take control of the table and the pace of the game, if you do you can pretty much put the pedal to the metal to the money.

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The other thing I look at is how short the shortest stack is. If the shortest stack is extremely short, then I usually open up considerably because I am pretty sure that making the money should be a pretty good lock for me.

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Here is one area I disagree with you, I have seen many times the smallest stack move all in on a rasier near the bubble with a marginal hand. Example, suppose blinds are 200/400, you are UTG with 6k, BB has 2400, SB 1900, button has 800. Now if you raise UTQ with a hand and your trying to steal, the button may call with a weak A or K, or two suited cards, etc... Now this has two effects on you. First you either win or lose a small amount of chips, and people notice you have been making steal plays. This of course has both good and bad effects.

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It's like an aggressive basketball team that gets a lead, and then decides to sit on the ball. They lose their aggressiveness, the lead dwindles and before you know it, there goes the game.


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excellent analogy /images/graemlins/grin.gif