5-5 PLHE, 3 hands that got me thinking

[Nero]

5-5 PLHE(9 handed): Here are the hands I wasnt quite sure about.

Hand 1: Im dealt 10s9s in the C0.
2 limpers and I raise pot($50), button + blinds fold, limpers both call.

Flop($160): Qh8h4s, MP bets $100, other limper folds, I make it $300, MP calls.

Give it up on the flop? I figured I had position a gutshot and a back-door flush and a high probability of checking through the turn.

Turn($760): (Qh8h4s)5s. MP checks, I check.

Standard right? My hand cant stand a check-raise and I really want to see the river here.

River($760): (Qh8h4s5s)Jd. MP bets $500, I make it $1500 and he calls with 88.

Missed out on an extra $760 here by not betting pot, but didn't think he had a hand nearly as strong as he did.

Thoughts?

Hand 2: Dealt KhJh in LP. I really hate the way I played this hand.

1 limper and I raise pot($40). Folded to BB who calls and limper also calls.

Flop($125): JJ10r. Check, check, I bet $80. BB raises to $160, EP folds, I call.

I had been betting 2/3s the pot 95% of the time i raised PF so I did again. Didn't know what to make of the min-raise as I hadnt yet seen it from this player. Fold here? Re-raise? I really hated calling but couldn't let it go or pull the trigger.

Turn($445): (JJ10)9. BB bets out $250. I call.

The only likely draw just got there and I still didn't bail. Couldn't put him on a hand I beat, but I couldn't put him on a hand period, so I meekly called.

River($945): (JJ109)Q. BB bets out $500 and I call with my rivered straight. He shows TT to scoop a nice pot.

Where should I have gotten away from this hand? BTW, this hand can be played profitably pre-flop in this game dispite everyhing to the contrary in the hand above.

Hand 3: 87o on the BB.
Folded to the button who limps. SB folds, I call $5 more.

Flop($25): AQ5. I check button bets pot ($25). I check raise pot ($100), button folds.

Standard? He's not the type to limp on the button with an A or K. Re-raise pre-flop and try and take it down there? or just give it up on the flop?

Nick

[Nero]

Anyone willing to take a stab at these? Figured I'd bump it once and then let it fall into post oblivion.

[turnipmonster]

you didn't post stack sizes for any of the hands, so hard to say. the first one looks ok, as long as you'll bluff on the river if he checks it again. this hand will do wonders for your action if it is a regular game. it's important that people know you will be betting and raising with hands like this.

the second one you butchered, but you knew that. I don't like the preflop raise at all.

the third one is pretty situational, most of the time I give it up but against the right player a raise can be a good move.

--turnipmonster

[Nero]

Thanks for taking the time to reply.
[ QUOTE ]
you didn't post stack sizes for any of the hands, so hard to say. the first one looks ok, as long as you'll bluff on the river if he checks it again. this hand will do wonders for your action if it is a regular game. it's important that people know you will be betting and raising with hands like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't post the stack sizes as they never really came into play, around ~2500-3000 for the first two hands.

I was done with the hand(to a bet) unimproved after he called the flop raise. I had been betting into every flop that I had raised PF(taking most down) and now they had started betting into me alot on the flop. I didn't really know the best way to adjust to this. I didn't want to start folding to a bet every time I missed a flop, so I would usually re-raise (draws and made hands) or fold.

Had he checked the river to me I would have bet the pot, 10 high wasnt winning a showdown and I put him on 99-jj up until the river and im sure i could have folded those out.

Its a regular game and this hand was met with some mixed responses, thus the post here.

[ QUOTE ]
the second one you butchered, but you knew that. I don't like the preflop raise at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it was ugly throughout. With the raise pre-flop im looking to win a small pot or flop big and reverse dominate AK, AQ, ect. Getting away from dominated hands postflop is something i've worked hard on, but that hand bothered me for some time afterwards. The small gains made by playing a hand like this correctly can so easily be wiped out with one mistake like that.

[ QUOTE ]
the third one is pretty situational, most of the time I give it up but against the right player a raise can be a good move.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thats what I thought. One of those hands thats hard to comment on without actually being there.

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]

Thats what I thought. One of those hands thats hard to comment on without actually being there.

[/ QUOTE ]

the flop checkraise is actually a really good move a coupla times a session just so your opponents can't bet with impunity when you check. I should checkraise the flop more, I think /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[tewall]

First hand, I don't like the raise unless there's a good chance you'll take it down on the flop. Even though there's a good chance it will get checked through the turn, you just don't have very many outs.

Second hand, I think he played it well. He made it difficult for you to get away from your hand. The two logical places to get away would be at the flop once you're raised. The other would be on the turn. But he made it tough for you. However, as you suspected, it really wasn't likely at all you were ahead once he raised you and bet the turn.

Another option would be to check/call the flop and see if he keeps coming. Check/fold if so. That would have saved you money, but this would be more of a trapping style where he would be afraid of your check-raising him. From what you've posted this may not fit with your style, which appears to be quite aggressive.

[Matt Flynn]

Hand 1: Preflop aggression is fine if you can read your opponents or they'll fold most of the time you bet the flop. Otherwise you got problems. Also, you can often achieve the same effect with a smaller raise.

Hand #2: This is why you don't raise with paints unless your cards don't really matter (see above). When you hit a medium hand you'll want to pursue, so deprive them of getting deep into your stack. If you had not raised preflop, you would have lost $600 less.

Hand #3: Reasonable play, but keep in mind you put out $100 to win $50, so you better take that down a huge amount of the time.

Is that a public game or private?

Matt

[Nero]

[ QUOTE ]
First hand, I don't like the raise unless there's a good chance you'll take it down on the flop. Even though there's a good chance it will get checked through the turn, you just don't have very many outs.


[/ QUOTE ]

My post may have made it sound as if I was drawing for the straight/flush. If I didn't think there was a reasonable chance of taking it down unimproved on the flop or river I would have folded to the flop bet. I just dont like the thought of backing down on flops to smallish bets with hands that I brought in for a raise. Ive represnented a hand and am going to continue doing so until he tells me im beat.

[ QUOTE ]
Second hand, I think he played it well. He made it difficult for you to get away from your hand. The two logical places to get away would be at the flop once you're raised. The other would be on the turn. But he made it tough for you. However, as you suspected, it really wasn't likely at all you were ahead once he raised you and bet the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think he played it extremely well given the fact I could flipped my hand face up. I showed no aggression after the check-raise so he could safely put me on an overpair/Jx. Your right in that the turn was probably the best place to lay this down, I think I have the odds to call the flop bet and try to spike a K or the J. After that I really need to let this hand go.

[ QUOTE ]
Another option would be to check/call the flop and see if he keeps coming. Check/fold if so. That would have saved you money, but this would be more of a trapping style where he would be afraid of your check-raising him. From what you've posted this may not fit with your style, which appears to be quite aggressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have position and checking this flop seems to be a valid option. I dont want to stack off with this hand and checking keeps the pot small. This would be a logical spot for AA,KK, and especially AK to take one off and check behind. I could then make a decision on the turn facing a much smaller bet and the same with the river. I think I like this line best.

[Nero]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: Preflop aggression is fine if you can read your opponents or they'll fold most of the time you bet the flop. Otherwise you got problems. Also, you can often achieve the same effect with a smaller raise.
.

[/ QUOTE ]

Typically it doesnt make it to the turn. Pot-sized raises pre-flop were the mine and the table standard, post-flop bet sizes varied more.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #2: This is why you don't raise with paints unless your cards don't really matter (see above). When you hit a medium hand you'll want to pursue, so deprive them of getting deep into your stack. If you had not raised preflop, you would have lost $600 less.


[/ QUOTE ]

The cards usually dont but I got caught here. I generally agree with everything else.

Both. Its a private game in a public place. Its in the basement of a local nightclub and has 2 tables going. The 5-5 game with about 12 regulars and a .5/1 or 1/2 that the bar employees play in. Nice setup as the drinks and food are usually covered unless the owners having a really bad night /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

[tewall]

On hand 1, you raise pre-flop and the guy still bet into you, despite your raise. Just because you've represented a hand, doesn't mean you have to continue with it. If he had checked, I can see you betting as pretty routine, but unless this guy is quite a good player (or really bad), why would you think he'd bet into you with nothing? I think in this situation he's a big favorite to at least call your raise, so it's going to cost you a lot to try to take it away from him. I don't believe your raise will be a money winner, unless it was done as a change up or your opponent has a major flaw of some sort.

[Nero]

[ QUOTE ]
On hand 1, you raise pre-flop and the guy still bet into you, despite your raise. Just because you've represented a hand, doesn't mean you have to continue with it. If he had checked, I can see you betting as pretty routine, but unless this guy is quite a good player (or really bad), why would you think he'd bet into you with nothing? I think in this situation he's a big favorite to at least call your raise, so it's going to cost you a lot to try to take it away from him. I don't believe your raise will be a money winner, unless it was done as a change up or your opponent has a major flaw of some sort.


[/ QUOTE ]

He's a good player and isn't likely to just keep check/folding flops he misses. If he only plays back at me or bets into me when he has a hand here I will show a profit raising any two against him pre-flop and then betting into him on the flop. Him betting into me was his way of countering this, Im trying to formulate the best way to counter this knowing that this is what he's doing. He had a set of 8's here but will bet into this flop with a lot less. I dont think he's a big favorite to call the flop bet here, but I may be mistaken. He is well aware that by calling this bet he may have to face 2 additional pot sized bets to make it to a showdown.

I am only bluffing the river if check to again as I could put him on a pair smaller than a Q or a flush draw 50% or more. If he has a Q im likely getting picked off, as he would check/call this on the river I think.

I agree with you though that this was a marginal situation, one in which im still trying to get a feel for. At times I think I played it right, and at times I think its just not worth worrying about and should have given up on the flop and moved on to the next hand.