Raising for the *free card*

[joker122]

I'm half way through Lee Jones' Winning Low Limit Hold 'EM; it's my first read. Lee seems to place alot of value on raising the flop in LP with a flush draw or an OESD or even middle pair with an overcard kicker + backdoor flush draw in order to get a free card on the turn. I play $2/4 and have never employed this tactic, but it seems to makes sense. The usual format of a low limit hand is flop = bet, raise... turn = check to the raiser.

Do you consider raising for free cards a consistent, and moreover, profitable, part of your aresenal? I realized a big part of the reason I've never tried it is because no one ever posts a hand here in which they raised for a free card, and this forum is where I get almost all of my poker education.

I can't remember what HEPFAP or TOP says on the matter. Both books explain it but I don't remember either strongly advocating it. (At least not nearly as strongly as Lee).

Have I been ignoring a profitable strategy this whole time?

[bagger]

I tend to use this much more when I am in late position when I close out the betting so that nobody can see me check and then bet behind me. But yes, I will use this especially when drawing to a flush when my pocket cards are suited as it is much harder for others to put you on the flush draw as compared to a big pair as they will not always determine that you're betting a draw. If/when your draw does hit it's a little more disguised than being ultra conservative until that 3rd suited card comes on the turn and/or river.

Jones' book on Low Limit hold 'em is excellent. By far the best read when it comes to low stakes hold 'em.

[joker122]

Thanks bagger. I was actually going to post a follow up post to my original post about being exactly last to act. It seems this is the only time this strategy can be used.

[bagger]

Essentially you are making your 4th street bet for $3 instead of $6 by raising on the flop.

[Sundevils21]

I also love "wllhe" by Lee Jones. In my usual 3-6 at party raising with a flush draw(usually only with the nut flush or second nut flush draws) when Im last to act, has imense value to me. The "check to the raiser" usually happens at least(90% of the time). If the flush doesn't hit the river, I have no obligation to call. I only run into trouble with this hand when I get reraised on the flop. I love Lee Jones' book but he doesn't disscuss the worst case scenario very often. But all in all WLLHE has made me alot of money and also taught me cool tricks like this that has made me a winning player.

[eh923]

The real profit of raising in LP w/ a strong draw is that you're actually getting +EV for the bet. If you're about a 2:1 dog to make your hand, if you raise 3 people who all call, you're making money.

[Sundevils21]

True raising in that situation is +EV, but I would usually raise heads up, where mathematically it's -EV. Just for the free card. Especially if I had Ax suited.

[sfer]

This is right on the money. Taking a free card with strong draws in a loose/passive game is an old idea. You can easily be profiting from just the bet odds with an OESD or 4-flush in a big multiway hand. So you'll routinely see hands on this forum where flops are raised with draws and followed through with a bet/raise on the turn.

And with lots of callers I'm praying to get 3-bet so I can hopefully cap and trap the field for multiple bets.

If you're going to take free cards, don't do it with big draws and big fields. Continue to bet. Take you free turn cards when you have a much weaker draw, like 2 overcards or have few opponents.

Also, another issue is that many smarter opponents have read the same books, can identify your "move," and will lead the turn anyway or 3-bet the flop.

[The Dude]

There is a lot of wrong thinking around these forums when it comes to flush draws. Hopefully you don't fall into the same trap many others here do.

Often, a flush draw on the flop can be much more powerful than a "made" hand. The reason is that you will almost always know when your hand is good with the flush draw, so you can avoid paying people off on the end when you don't have it, and yet your opponents will almost always pay you off when you do.

If you are on the button and there is a bet and at least one caller, you should almost always raise your flush draw (the exceptions are if there were a few EP checkers before the initial bet that would likely call one bet but not two, and in some cases where the board is paired). You really don't mind being 3-bet, and in fact if one of the original callers calls two cold then you are making money on villian's re-raise.

After you raise the flop with your flush draw, you have a couple of options on the turn. If you have any semi-bluffing opportunity, a bet is often good when checked to. If you don't, then you can take your free card.

OESD are very similar if the board is rainbow, and if it is a double belly-buster straight draw it is even better, because people usually don't recognize double belly-buster flops, so your hand is much more disguised. If the board is two-tone, be careful though, because you often can only consider 6 clean outs.

[sthief09]

The free card raise is somewhat of a played out move. There are many couter-tactics to the free card, and people tend to translate a LP raise in a coordinated board as a free card raise. I think the most important aspect of the free card is just not giving one. That's what a good portion of the section in TOP is about.

I think often when you raise for a free card, you are actually raising for value, because there are often many people in the pot at the lower limits. Knowing WHY you are raising is as important as knowing TO raise.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm half way through Lee Jones' Winning Low Limit Hold 'EM; it's my first read. Lee seems to place alot of value on raising the flop in LP with a flush draw or an OESD or even middle pair with an overcard kicker + backdoor flush draw in order to get a free card on the turn. I play $2/4 and have never employed this tactic, but it seems to makes sense. The usual format of a low limit hand is flop = bet, raise... turn = check to the raiser.

Do you consider raising for free cards a consistent, and moreover, profitable, part of your aresenal? I realized a big part of the reason I've never tried it is because no one ever posts a hand here in which they raised for a free card, and this forum is where I get almost all of my poker education.

I can't remember what HEPFAP or TOP says on the matter. Both books explain it but I don't remember either strongly advocating it. (At least not nearly as strongly as Lee).

Have I been ignoring a profitable strategy this whole time?



[/ QUOTE ]

Many of us shorthanded players like to raise for a free card quite a bit ... it is probably a somewhat more important tactic in games where there are fewer players to see the flop and so you aren't making equity on the bet itself. You'll also occasionally pick up a pot with such a raise against an opponent who is inclined to bluff. Another benefit to raising for a free card is that it prevents you from getting check-raised on the turn when up against a very aggressive opponent. Finally, raising for a free card with an unmade hand offers some cover to your made hands ... in short the possibility of achieving a free card on the turn should be part of your decision calculus in terms of how to play your hand, if not always the decisive factor.

One thing that I think people miss about the free card play is that taking the free card will sometimes help you to make more money on the river, e.g. if you check the turn through, you will very frequently be bet into on the river, and can raise that bet if your draw hits and make the money back that you had lost on the turn. This works somewhat better with a straight draw rather than a flush draw since straight draws are typically concealed a bit better, but my experience is that opponents will almost always call your river raise down even if you've made an obvious free card play.

Free card plays don't need to be reserved for four flushes and OESD's, btw. I'll frequently raise for a free card with something like (an unimproved) AK. The *fewer* outs that you have, the more you stand to gain from not having to put a bet in on the turn.