A couple of hands

[joeg]

Hi everyone, heres a few hands I thought I played badly tonight and was just wondering if anyone has any feedback, these are at pacific's $0.5-$1 tables so are super loose

the first hand was 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gifK/images/graemlins/club.gif2/images/graemlins/heart.gifA/images/graemlins/heart.gif UTG I just call allthough I think I could have raised because it is unlikely to knock anyone out that is holding 56XX let alone A3XX, I get 2 callers + the blinds and 5 players see the flop, a nasty 9/images/graemlins/spade.gifQ/images/graemlins/spade.gif4/images/graemlins/spade.gif. I pretty much give up here but it gets checked around and the turn comes 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif giving me the nut low draw and a wheel draw, which isnt really worth that much. the small blind who is a very bad player bets out, this could just as easily be 2 pair or a low draw as a flush, I think I should fold here as it was checked around on the flop the pot is only $2.50 and it costs me $1 to call and other than a 5 I'm only playing for half the pot, but I call and the turn comes 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif so I fold. So how bad was my call here and how do you deal with low draws when there is just one card to come and the pot is tiny like this?

Second hand I played even worse, I get A/images/graemlins/heart.gifA/images/graemlins/club.gif3/images/graemlins/club.gif4/images/graemlins/spade.gif in the big blind and there is 2 callers, both are loose but the small blind raises and I think a double bet stands a good chance of knocking someone out so I reraise and one LP player calls, the button folds and the small blind also calls (Should I raise here if I dont think I can reduce the field?), I dont really like raising many hands preflop because I'm much more at home playing in multihand small pots so from here on in I need advice most. So the flop comes 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif8/images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and sb bets, I think this could mean one of several things, A2XX, QQXX, KKXX, AAXX, or just a raise to knock me out and get heads up with the other player who was bad. If I'm against A2XX my aces may be good for the high end, plus if an A or a 2 falls I could be good for the whole pot so I raise to try and knock out the other player, who despite being a calling station may fold bottom pair that could improve to beat me with 2 cards. But he calls, and from what I've seen of him it could mean anything and the small blind calls to and the turn comes J/images/graemlins/club.gif pretty inoculous but I dont think my aces are good for high and if the LP caller was slowplaying any sort of made hand the turn is where I'd expect him to let me know so I switch to check call mode and LP bets, then the SB raises?, I really cant see this being A2 or any kind of hand that was helped by a jack so now I think he's most likely got QQXX (QQA2 or JJA2 is a scary thought but the pot is quite big now) so I think my low is likely to be good often enough to justify a call as I think the half decent player is aiming high and the crap player, well he has four cards so i call. The turn comes 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif and SB bets and I call, as does LP and sb show JJ24 and my respect for him diminishes a little and LP mucks and my badly played second nut low wins half the pot.

I know I played this badly, the thing is I'm used to 5-6 people seeing a flop where the pot is small so you can afford to wait, when it is raised twice and there is only 2 other players I think you need to loosen up a bit and do what you can to try to knock out players that can out draw you. I think I took it a bit far in this hand and the growing size of the pot caused me to make composite mistakes and I was lucky that my read was close enough to the truth. So how would a good player play these hands?

[Buzz]

Joe - Although you don't state it anywhere, you're evidently playing Omaha-8.

Betting round #1: First note that you are in very poor position. You usually should not particulartly want to play hands from UTG. However, you have a playble starting hand from this position - not a great hand, but a playable one. I think the limp is fine.

Betting round #2: The blinds have already checked to you. Low doesn't look good. There is a fair chance neither of the two players behind you has made a spade flush. If so, a bet by you might take the pot. Sometimes I might try a move here. (But note that for the move to work you have to have established a reputation as a solid player).

Instead you check and get a free card. Okay, I think that's fine too.

Betting round #3: It isn't clear to me if the big blind called. Assuming the big blind did not call, I wonder what would happen if you raised.

Hold onto that thought and let's consider your odds for calling, assuming the big blind has folded.

There are two extremes:

3a. You call but nobody else does. Here you're risking 2 units to possibly win 2.5 units. your implied pot odds are therefore 1.25 to 1, or roughly one to one. In the meanshile, the odds against you making the nut low are 29 to 15, or almost two to one. since you want your implied pot odds to be better than the odds against making your hand, you do not have favorable odds to call here.

Thus you can either raise or fold - but not call. That may first seem a bit strange to you, but that's the way I see it. Usually you should just quietly fold. If you try the bluff raise here, you'll probably get called and then you'll have to decide if you want to continue the bluff on the river or not. if you do continue the bluff - and if you get called and have to show it, I can almost guarantee that these opponents will pay you off whenever you do hit a hand. (So that should pretty much be the end of your bluffing for a while).

3b. You call and the two players behind you also call. If this happens, you have to figure that about two times out of five you'll only tie for low - if, indeed you make low at all. You're risking two units to possibly win 3.5 units if you don't get quartered and 1.25 units if you do get quartered. (I'm not even going to bother with the possibility of your getting sixthed).

Three times out of five when you do make low and don't get quartered, you expect to win 3.5 units and two times out of five when you make low and get quartered, you expect to win 1.25 units.

(3/5)*3.5 + (2/5)*1.25 = 2.6.

Thus, considering the possibility of getting quartered, you're risking 2 units to win 2.6 units, implied pot odds of 1.3 to 1. Again, even with the two players behind you limping along, the implied pot odds are not as great as the odds against making low. You have a clear fold. (If I had considered the possibility of your getting sixthed for low the odds would only have been slightly worse).

Just about any way you look at it, you don't have favorable odds to call.

Therefore, if you want to play with the odds on your side, you should fold.

On the other hand, if raking in more pots makes you feel better about yourself and you don't really care much if you win or lose, hang in there! My wife and I used to ski at Tahoe. During the day we'd ski and then at night we'd hit the nickle slots. The nickle slots were almost as much fun as skiing - and one Hell of a lot cheaper. If you play when the odds are against you in poker, you don't have as much of a chance of winning over the long haul as you would if you played the nickle slots instead. And we never went home winners from playing the nickle slots, although once in a while we'd hit a jackpot.

Betting round #4: You miss on the river and fold. Fine.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[Buzz]

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Should I raise here if I dont think I can reduce the field?

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Joe - If you raise because your objective is to reduce the field, but you know that you can't accomplish your objective by raising, then no, you should not raise. It doesn't make any sense to make a move that you know won't work. Period! That's all there is to it.

However, if you're raising for a different reason and your raise may accomplish your objective, then a raise makes sense. I think you should have your objective clearly in mind before you make a move - and then only make the move when it has a decent chance of accomplishing your objective. I hope I'm being clear here. There are lots of reasons to raise, and sometimes more than one reason. But to raise for some reason when you know the raise won't accomplish your objective just in case your raise might accomplish some other objective you havent even thought about is purely stupid. (You want it straight, don't you?)

That written, you might raise here simply because of the value of your hand. You have a very strong starting hand and a good case can be made for raising simply on the basis of the value of your hand.

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...sb bets, I think this could mean one of several things, A2XX, QQXX, KKXX, AAXX, or just a raise to knock me out and get heads up with the other player who was bad.

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Reasonable, but incomplete assessment, IMHO. Could also mean a flush draw or two pairs or a set of eights or a set of sixes. Could also mean the same A3XX low as you - or could be something else. Maybe it just means SB plans to call a bet and feels that he might as well take the initiative. Hard to read exactly at this point. You need to have an idea of how this player plays from the small blind to narrow the possibilities. Since I already know what this players hand was, and never would have guessed it after this flop, I think this particular player might be hard to read in any event.

[ QUOTE ]
If I'm against A2XX my aces may be good for the high end, plus if an A or a 2 falls I could be good for the whole pot

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Yeah. When you play the second nut low draw, what you have to do is try to figure out whether or not you are up against the nut low draw. The advice given to beginners, and it's excellent advice for beginners and not bad advice for anyone else, is to not draw to anything but the nuts. If you ever get to the point where you can read your opponents and have a good idea of where you stand with your 2nd nut low draw or 2nd nut low, in my humble opinion you can play these hands - but you have to be able to read your opponents well to do so profitably.

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I switch to check call mode and LP bets, then the SB raises

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We don't know SB's motive for raising. Could SB be trying to eliminate you from the field, taking your check here to mean weakness? Looking at things from SB's point of view, you have just checked and therefore you figure to hate facing a double bet. You raised on the two-low-card flop and then checked when the turn was a high card. It should look to SB like you're drawing for low, don't you think?

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I really cant see this being A2 or any kind of hand that was helped by a jack

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By raising on the second betting round and then checking on the third betting round, you have made it very difficult to read your opponent's hands. The reason is they may now be reacting to you more than to how the turn card affects their own hands. Do you see it?

Please don't misunderstand. I'm not criticising you for your play - just noting that if I were one of your opponents, I'd probably be reacting to your play every bit as much as playing my own cards. You might give more consideration to this aspect of your opponent's play.

[ QUOTE ]
so now I think he's most likely got QQXX (QQA2 or JJA2 is a scary...

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No way to read it, IMHO, at this point. Note that you're out of position too.

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the pot is quite big now) so I think my low is likely to be good often enough to justify a call

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Yep. Cross your fingers and call. You're stuck.

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sb show JJ24 and my respect for him diminishes a little and LP mucks and my badly played second nut low wins half the pot.

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Don't be so hard on yourself. I think your play was reasonable, given your reasoning. SB was very hard to read here.

Don't be so hard on SB either. In retrospect, it looks like SB planned the check-raise after making a set of jacks on the turn. Maybe SB figured the set of jacks would take the high, as indeed it did, and went for the check raise as a way to increase the size of the pot, expecting you to bet the turn. Then when you didn't bet the turn perhaps SB made the check raise anyway, but for a different reason. After you check the turn, SB might figure you for a non-nut low and think there is a chance you might fold to a double bet, but that the calling station would still pay off. Notice that if SB's ploy works on the turn - if you fold - SB scoops. Sb maximized his chances for scooping by playing the way he did.

I don't think I'd generally continue with 24JJ from the small blind after a flop of 68Q with two cards in a suit I didn't have. But SB played the Hell out of the hand after that.

[ QUOTE ]
....and I was lucky ....

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Amen.

Buzz

[joeg]

Hi buzz,

Thanks for writing those replies, I usually do stick to the hard and fast mantra only hitting to the nuts and find that a lot of the play becomes automatic, both of these situations were not so automatic though as in the first case I was hitting to the nuts but didnt have odds which is a rare thing at these low limit games. The second hand I wasnt happy with because I felt I had to break the mantra of hitting to the nuts because of the large pot and few players, I'm glad to hear that I didnt play the hand to badly though.

Thanks for the replies

Joe.