yet another maybe boring live PL hand

[turnipmonster]

the reason I am posting this is my friend thought this was questionable and I thought was very easy.

5-5 blinds, 3 limpers including the toughest player in the game (VTP) in EP. I am in the CO and make it a quarter straight with AKc (I have ~800 and even the waitress has me covered), blinds fold and VTP makes it 90 straight. I have never seen him limp reraise before, and he knows I play very tight. 2 limpers in between call, and I call, 360 in the pot.

the flop comes A 7 8, all hearts (I have clubs). VTP player bets 300, everyone mucks. your play?

so, more interesting related question. what is your play if you have AcKh?

--turnipmonster

[AJo Go All In]

i think you have to push here. there is 660 in the pot and you have 700 left? not much of a decision. sure, he could have you crushed with AA, but there's only 1 combination of that possible, and he could be freerolling on you with AxKh. but you simply don't have enough stack to get away from this hand in my opinion. this is a more interesting question if you both had 3000 in front of you.

[limon]

[BigBiceps]

I would fold AKo, and push all in with AxKh.

[1800GAMBLER]

Push, Push.

[DcifrThs]

just curious, but why robofold both hands? do you have him pegged 100% for the case aces?

if so why not fold preflop if you're going to fold when one of your cards hit anyway?
-Barron

[Nero]

I would fold here. He's likely got a high pocket pair containing a heart AxKh or AA, and you cant make a big enough raise to get him to fold any of the PP's. He may very well have less, but I would think I could find a better spot where I may not be drawing dead/slim.

If I heald AxKh, I would probably push for the reasons I would fold above. PP's containing a heart probably wont fold and are drawing slim, I may be freerolling AK, and I have outs against AA.

[limon]

thats like saying why not fold black aces pre flop if you wont back them on a board of ThJhQh. i dont know what else to say. i raise when im winning and fold when im beat i guess i dont think about as much stuff as you guys

[Matt Flynn]

<< and even the waitress has me covered>>

Good one!

Forgot to add you can fold after he reraises preflop. Pick your spots.

Once in I'm willing to dance here. My guess is he has QQ or KK with a heart, is out of line period, or has AK with or without the heart. If he's got pocket aces and hit the case ace god bless him. If he plays the way you say he does not have a flush or a small set.

But who cares? It's a $360 pot - $660 to me -and I've hit my hand and only have $710 behind?

Disengage brain. Go to arm. All in, and try not to spill your drink. If you're wrong fold the AK preflop next time.

Matt

[illmatic]

I don't know how good this guy is, or how good he thinks you are. I push with no qualms at all. He bet this very scary flop into a tight player. That screams bluff to me. He wants a fold, not a call.

I can't see any way a tricky tough player would pot bet a set of aces or a flopped flush into a tight player. Holding two aces, one on the board, knowing your pre-flop raise, he would have to put you on KK or QQ and would want to get a bet out of you, not scare you away.

The only hand that he could likely be holding (having re-raised a tight player to 90 preflop) that made the flush is AKh. If he has that, and he is tricky I don't see him betting this flop that big. He wants you to catch a worse flush and break you.

I don't see him re-raising preflop 77 or 88 against a tight player out of position, if he's any good.

So, if he has the aces or the flush or the set and he played the hand this way then he gets your money and now you know he is just a "bet what he has" type player. By your description as "very tough player" I believe it is unlikely he holds these hands.

In pushing you have to be willing to chance losing your stack as a big favorite because it's a guarantee he has at least one heart and will call when you push.

I think he has KK, QQ, with one heart, or less likely AK, JJ with one heart.

later.
illmatic

[ML4L]

Hey limon,

What hand do you put him on that beats you? Or is it a feel thing?

ML4L

[limon]

i save my all-ins for times when im a definite favorite. even if he has just a pair & heart draw he cant raise enough to make the dudes call wrong.

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
Forgot to add you can fold after he reraises preflop. Pick your spots.

[/ QUOTE ]

even with 2 callers? I have the button (effectively, anyways), and AKs?

--turnipmonster

[ML4L]

[turnipmonster]

a lot of very different responses from players I respect.

I don't know what he had, because I thought about pushing for a minute or two, and folded. I asked him later if he would have called had I pushed, and he said yes, that he had top set and he put me on AxKh.

something I didn't mention is that he had just lost a big pot, and I thought it was less likely he was bluffing into 3 preflop callers (with deep stacks) with a 300 bet. He knows that I know it's a raise or fold situation, so it felt like his (and my) chips were already in the middle.

My thinking was, preflop vs. 3 callers I don't mind calling, as the pot will be at ~360 and if I flop a good draw I can easily raise allin.

At the time, I felt the worst thing I could put him on was AKo, and I did think AA was a serious concern. If he did have AA I am drawing almost stone dead, and I felt that a good percentage of the time he would be freerolling on me with AxKh.

I appreciate all the responses, a lot to think about.

--turnipmonster

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
He bet this very scary flop into a tight player. That screams bluff to me. He wants a fold, not a call.


[/ QUOTE ]

he did bet into 3 players, 2 of them with deeper stacks. I don't think he'd bet into that kind of field and then fold to a raise.

I liked the rest of your comments, except I think a lot of players will come out firing with a set here. we all play a lot together, if we always check called with our sets we would be far too predictable. so I think a percentage of the time he will come out firing with a set, especially against 3 callers. so, at least for my definition a tricky player will bet out a certain percentage of the time, and check-call or check-raise a certain percentage of the time.

in a way, this pot was easier because the callers in between us keep him in line somewhat, at least on the flop. while I know he can't have a flush and he knows I don't have one, someone in the middle could very well have a flush.

--turnipmonster

[AJo Go All In]

[ QUOTE ]
I asked him later if he would have called had I pushed, and he said yes, that he had top set and he put me on AxKh.

[/ QUOTE ]

the question is, does this make it more or less likely that he actually had AA? personally, i vote for less.

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
the question is, does this make it more or less likely that he actually had AA? personally, i vote for less.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, that's the thing. I tend not to believe it either, although he did volunteer his hand, which was strange of him (I didn't ask what he had, as I didn't think he would tell me, just if he would have called).

--turnipmonster

[Matt Flynn]

Just giving you options. If the UTG raiser hardly ever reraises without AA or KK then yes, fold. But normally you would call.

Y'know, I can't fathom folding on the flop. It'd have to be some humongous tell for me to fold.

Matt

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]

Y'know, I can't fathom folding on the flop. It'd have to be some humongous tell for me to fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

probably why you play better than me /images/graemlins/smile.gif my thinking was, do I really want to go broke with this hand? no. so maybe I should have folded preflop. the more I think about it, the more likely I think it is he had QQ or KK with the heart, although he very well could have had AA. anyways, thanks for all the advice. your posts have definitely helped me a lot recently!

--turnipmonster