value betting?

I have heard the phrase "bet for value" thrown around on here a lot and have a general idea about the concept but was hoping someone could help define it further. Please review the following hand and let me know if a river bet would be a "value bet." Thanks in advance.


Online LL table semi-loose/passive. Unknown MP player limps, I'm next to act and raise with AdKd, all fold to BB who calls, MP calls. Flop comes TcKh4h. Checked to me, I bet, BB folds, MP calls. Turn is (TcKh4h)Qd. Checked to me, I bet, MP calls. River is (QdTcKh4h)Qc. Checked to me and I check, fearing trips. MP showed JdTs for his pair of 10s/missed straight and my hand held up.


Would a bet from me have been a bet for value? Someone holding some random queen might have hit trips. I run into this and similar situations a lot and often just check through on the river. Something tells me I am losing a lot of bets here . . . .

Dpending on who may speak to, value betting the river is either a river bet that is not a bluff or quite simply a...river bet (some will say a river 'value' bet is a bet that could either get calls from a worse hand or a bet that could potentially bluff away a better hand).


The term I think is more related to how the river works. You are done PROTECTING your hand with betting/raising. Now you may bet, but you are doing it purely to get paid off on the value of your hand (something along those lines I think!).


On the hand you mentioned I think it's very close between betting and checking. Checking is certainly not a BIG mistake here (particularly against low limit players who LOVE to check-raise trip Queens here). I would be more inclined to bet it in first position. If your opponent have a queen, he will certainly not check behind you anyway.


lars

Betting for value simply means getting an opponent with a lessor hand to call your bet. You had the best hand (the opponents weakness was shown by the check) and you should have bet.

it means not doing anything tricky. You assume you have top hand and then bet, bet, bet. No checking pocket kings trying to entice a vote. People either follow you or fold.

Your example is almost exactly what we refer to when describing a value bet. Its not really what some people call a "thin" value bet, because I think your example is a relatively routine bet to make. But it is a value bet on the river nonetheless.


What people mean by a value bet is betting a medium strength/weakish holding because your opponent will call you with a weaker holding, but will not bet his weaker holding for you. In other words, he will call with more hands than he will bet.


Your example of running queens is a great time to continue to bet your top pair top kicker. Even if you had AJ, and top pair was Jacks this would be a great spot for a bet, provided you were not raised on the turn. A running pair on the turn and river is usually a good thing for you if you felt like you were in front on the flop.

Apparently, Clark (at least) uses a slightly different meaning than I do.


When I say "value bet" I mean simply, "I expect to make money if somebody calls." I've not carefully investigated my own use of the term, but I suspect that substituting "not a bluff" would give similar results.


A "thin value bet" generally means that reasonable people will disagree about whether a bet is profitable. As Clark said, some people would describe your bet as "thin", meaning that if you did this 100-zillion times, your net income from this bet would be extremely small, if even positive.


I also agree with Clark that it's probably not terribly thin unless your opponents love check-raising.


I think you made a good value bet.


Regards, Lee


P.S. I should also note that Tommy Angelo's peer-reviewed answer to this sort of problem is, "If a sufficient amount of ink has been spilled on the problem, and relatively equal portions of the thinking population argue both sides of the argument, then it probably doesn't matter what you do." This is an extremely good point, and has the advantage of scientific research backing it.