When do I fold?

[mmanne]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.stompandcrush.com/cgi-bin/hhparser.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 raises, Hero calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.
<font color="green"> Should I be folding this pre-flop in this situation? I thought there would be multiple players and this is a great multi hand </font>

Flop: (13.50 SB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls, Button calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.
<font color="green"> I called here, hoping there wouldn't be a check-raise (and possible 3-bet). I thought my gutshot, backdoor draws were enough </font>

Turn: (9.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls, Button folds, UTG calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds.
<font color="green"> I think this was by far my worst decision. I can easily fold here, but talked myself into more possible outs. </font>
River: (12.75 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls, UTG calls.
<font color="green"> What am I doing? </font>
Final Pot: 15.75 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 15.75 BB, between UTG, MP3 and Hero.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by MP3 (15.75 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
UTG shows Ks 2h (one pair, kings).
MP3 shows Ac Ah (three of a kind, aces).
Hero shows Js As (one pair, aces).
Outcome: MP3 wins 15.75 BB. </font>

[mmanne]

Bump

[Alobar]

I think the pre-flop call was ok you're sure it's going to multiway and you have a hand that plays well there.

Flop, I'd be scared of the checkraise in this situation, but your getting 13-1 on your call, so I go ahead and make it

turn: this is a tough one I think without a read on mp3, if he is the type that raises lots of hands pre flop I think you could make an argument for a raise here, if he is the type that only raises strong hands you are most likely behind and the only thing that will save you is if you hit the inside straight. I think its raise or fold.

On the river you're prolly behind, but you have top pair and the flush card didn't hit so you really have no reason to fear an UTG check raise, pot odds I Think clearly make a call in order

[joker122]

I think the preflop call was correct and the flop call was ok only because of the backdoor flush and inside straight draws. On the turn I'd probably drop since one of your draws is dead. You have to ask yourself what hands can you beat that he would raise preflop. There aren't many. Some might tell you to stick around and see if the ten comes, and that may be correct, but after it doesn't there is a very slim chance you have the best hand. Consequently, I'd make a tough fold on the river.

[LetsRock]

As much as I would like to tell you I wouldn't, I honestly believe I'd have played the hand the same as you. This is kind of the danger with calling with AJs, if you don't get your flush, you're pretty much just hoping for luck the rest of the hand. And you got the worst of all possible flops; just enough to suck you in. You had a bunch of ways to improve, and unfortunately the probable worst improvement came - the A. Now you start talking yourself into hoping he raised with JJ or TT and can't let it go. And your down to 3 outs (can't be comfortable if the T/images/graemlins/heart.gif falls) so your chances of taking this hand are slim, but now your a bit committed to the pot so you have to pay him off.

Probably, your best chance to get away would have been on the flop, but it's easy to say now - I probably wouldn't have got out of it either (depending of course on any reads I may have).

[QnA]

Other than considering a raise or fold on the turn, I probably would have played this hand similarly.

[blackaces13]

The turn is the real decision in this hand (the flop call is a must with that size pot IMO). What's intersting about the turn here is you're in the painful situation of having your gutshot straight draw counterfeited and also making top pair in the process. It is extremely difficult to fold this type of hand and situations like this will come up all the time when you play hands with 2 big cards.

But what I think you have to tell yourself in this situation is that when you have multiple opponents and the only way you can make your straight is a case where 4 of your cards come from the board (as in this situation) then you are almost definitely drawing at 1/2 the pot or worse, 1/3 or even 1/4. The rare times you scoop will be negated by the rare times its a 4 way split. On average, you're looking at a little less than 1/2 the pot I'd say. Therefore, even though the pot was 9.75 BB's which is just about enough to call a single bet with a gutshot and 6 opponents, you should proceed as though the pot had about 4 bets in it and you had 3 opponents. This makes the play an easy fold as long as you have almost no confidence in your top pair decent kicker escaping this hand alive, which it seems you don't. Also the ten of hearts is no sure thing so you actually don't even have the full 4 outs.

Like I said these spots are tough ones to be in but I think that if the turn were a total blank, say a black deuce, then you could easily continue the hand. The fact that it was an A, which seems to help you at first glance, in reality just made your outs about 1/2 value or worse. Counterfeit straights in big pots are what I would suspect are some of the toughest decisions to make even for experienced and good players.

[mmanne]

Thanks BlackAces, that's the perfect way to put what I was wondering about. I need to remember to add in the chance that I'm drawing to a split pot in multi-handed low-limit games. Everyone's advice convinced me that it was a tough hand, but I think that dropping on the turn would have been the correct decision.

matt