NL Bankrolls?

[Morbo]

What is a reasonale amount of max buyins for your NL bankroll? What would you consider the minimum amount?
Is there any essays or texts on this issue? For example, how you would alter your strategy if you had an insufficient bankroll?
The game itself is $50 NL with .25/.50 blinds. I want to play it regulary but I'm not sure how much money I want to devote while I'm just learning. Thanks.

[tdomeski]

10 buy-ins is a good start. . So $500 is a good start but I would feel better with around $1000 behind me to handle any extreme days. . .

If I'm playing with an insufficient bankroll I'll generally play the $25 NL to get a sufficient bankroll, but you can always just play one table of $50 NL and try and play your "A" game. . .

[CrisBrown]

Hi Morbo,

If you're just starting out, I'd actually suggest playing SNGs (sit-and-go tournaments) rather than ring games, for a couple of reasons.

First, a SNG has a built-in stop loss; you can't lose more than the tournament buy-in. Yes, it also has a max profit, but while you're learning the stop loss is probably more important.

Second, each SNG offers wide range of situations: deep stack, short stack, full table, short-handed, very loose tables, very tight tables, etc. This allows you to work on all of the various skills you'll need in ring play, and it forces you to attend and adapt to changing situations.

Cris

[scrub]

If your goal is to become a strong NL cash game player, then I think starting out in sitngos is a bad idea. I've played with a few very intelligent players who learned how to play NL playing sitngos, and they were extremely leaky in live cash games with decent stack sizes. Party sitngos have extremely short stack sizes at every blind level, and other sites' sitngos are not much deeper. Additionally, proper strategy in a sitngo with a structured payout involves serious deviations from proper NL ring game strategy.

That being said, if your goal is to make money playing online poker with a relatively low standard deviation relative to your win rate, allowing you to play with a small bankroll, sitngos might be your best bet. A friend of mine who plays online professionally switched from large buyin NL ring games to playing only NL sitngos a few months ago because of some of the advantages that sitngos offer. I'm currently taking a break from NL and limit ring game play to focus entirely on Limit sitngos. I think they can be fun and a great change of pace, plus they are much easier to keep records for, which is a very important habit for a new player to get into.

Whichever game you choose, good luck!

scrub

[pokerexplorer.com]

only play NL

[goodguy_1]

grind out multiple tables of $25-0.25/0.50 NL Party games-You should be able to make a minimum of $5 per hr per table-if you play 4 tables at once which is quite easy at NL-you'll make $20 an hour.If you play really well you can make $6+ an /hr per table.

Your hourly standard deviation should be about $20-$25 for just one table.Play at this level and study the game-and you hourly rate will improve.

Play 1000 table-hours and move up.You should be able to beat NL games for 5-15 bigblinds.10 as you move up in stakes and play tougher games.Play super tight and aggresive..this is easy to do playing multi tables.

I find sit-n-go's much higher variance and a crapshoot.Many very good players have mixed results in sng's after huge samples...others excel at them-I make money at them but not enough on a sd/earn basis-in other words my results arent that consistent and I make much more in other areas.I have not ever really ever focused on sng's more than 20-30 at any limit...
Cash games are where it's at for me I know that.
If you dont play NL well play short limit games.

My worst streaks were like a $500 loss in the $25 NL at Party in 1100 table hours-but this was early on when I'd only been playing NL for a month or two.
You really shouldnt have anything worst than this.running bad at NL is mindboggling.You should be ok at Party $25 NL with $250-$500 for a starting bankroll..$500 is overkill.

My worse streak in Party $50's is also only -$500 but thats after playing ~2200 combined NL table hours-so my experience has helped from my early learning period of NL last summer.Since in past posts I have yapped about my great $50 NL average.I have some updates.At even 500 table hours I was making $14 an hour per table in this game.Well I had sensed that perhaps I was running well and I was right.Even at 700 hours my average was still stubbornly high at around the same level...well I went thru the dreaded streak I had expected.Over my next 200 hours my hourly rate fell to $11 an hour..back up to around $12 now.Grrr...2 things are a factor ..games are not as good as they were.It's hard to stack-off now against poor players..because there are fewer fish-still there but not as many...most importantly I was running very well.I am now playing Party NL $50 and $100 and alot of short(6Max) LHE.

[AeonBlues]

I don't think anyone answered your question dirrectly, so here goes.

If you are a winning player, and you are reasonbly tight, then 2000 X BB is a good enough bank. More so on party with the BB X 50 buy in. In a BB X 100 game, I would want 3000 X BB for a bank.

If you are Bruson super sytem style, then you need a much larger bankroll.

If you have some advanced math skills, you can read "Gambling Theory and Other Topics" by Mason Malmuth, for formulas on figuring bank roll.

But the nuts and bolts is: The most you can win or lose in an hour, factored with your hourly rate.

AeonBlues

[goodguy_1]

1000 bb BR thats overkill imho ..BUT I think it's a good idea to always be over bankrolled.It's fairly easy to get sideswiped for 400 bigblinds.600-800 less likely but I have experienced it.1000 only experienced it once in almost 3000 table-hour at NL.This happened in my first 3 months of play..I ran very bad and was still learning the game and some steam came into the equation at this point.

B&M and higher NL games $2-4+ thats something I'm sure has much higher comparable br requirements...cant say dont have experience there

To be more succinct non of your BR requirements matter if you cant beat the game.You need to play and learn the game .That means studying and playing a shitload.Play $25 NL at Party w/a $250-$500 BR.You need to log all your play and hours .You need to beat the game..only way you'll find out is play.If you lose more than $500 you got major problems with your game.

[scrub]

In the same way that I've heard people throw around 300 Big Bets as a "safe" bankroll in limit without doing real risk-analysis based on data, I've heard people throw around 10 buyins for 100 Big Blind buyin NL. I've never had a problem playing out of 10 buyins, but I'm pretty quick to drop back down in limits if I drop a few stacks. I also don't play anywhere near as well as AeonBlues does, so maybe my lower winrate comes with a lower standard deviation as some compensation for the fact that he makes a lot more money than I do...

If you are really just learning NL, there are cheaper ways to get your feet wet. UB has a 1c/2c blinds NL game with a $2.00 max buyin which can provide a very cheap training ground. It may seem silly playing for such a small amount of money, but the players don't play that much worse than the people playing for $25 do. I know putting in some hours in those games while learning NL taught me a lot and saved me a lot of money.

Read this forum, especially the archives, Ciaffone and Reubens, and TOP. Post hands that you're confused about, and look for similar hands in the archives--they are a wonderful resource.

Good luck and welcome to the forum(s)!

scrub

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I have stated before my opinion on this, and it's ONLY an OPINION, and is in no way based on mathematics or other "known facts." However, I have considerable experience in the matter, so I feel fine in rendering an opinion.

If you play NL WELL, 1000 big blinds should be enough. So for 50c BB, it'd be $500. This might break down somewhat if you play considerably higher, where the competition will be better. But online in the smaller games, I stand by my opinion.

If you are just learning, I would suggest a considerably higher bankroll than this, perhaps $1000-$1500.

al