Fold pocket 10's?

I'm in a somewhat loose 4-8 game. About half the time, there's a raise pre-flop. I'm in the button and it's 4 bets to me. Fold?

IMHO, it would be insane to pass up those kind of odds when you are on the button. If you flop a set, it could become a gold mine. If overcards fall and there is too much action, get out.


Lowlife Scum

I wouldn't even call three bets cold with TT. If your opponents are playing reasonable, then it's likely that whoever 3-bet has a pair bigger than Tens. The player who 4-bet almost certainly has a bigger pair.


With five players already in, it may not seem unreasonable to call since you're getting close to having the proper odds to flop a set. But, since you may be up against at least two bigger pairs, your odds aren't quite as good as they seem. Remember, the odds that they flop a set are the same as yours.

IMHO, it would be insane to pass up those kind of odds when you are on the button.


He's getting just slightly more than 5:1 pot odds to make the call. The odds of flopping a set are about 7.3:1. If anything is "insane", it's taking these kind of odds when you have the worst of it since it's very likely that TT is already worse than at leasy one of other hands.


If overcards fall and there is too much action, get out.


Strangely, once he sees the flop, the pot will be so big (at least 12 BB before the flop) that it would probably be wrong to fold before seeing the river card unless he's sure spiking a Ten would just give him a second best hand.

If this game is wild and crazy to begin with, I think you may be able to call. But if the game is only "somewhat" loose, then you MUST flop a set to win, considering that it has been raised, and re-raised 2 times before it gets to you. You might as well have pocket deuces in this spot. Considering pot odds, you will be stuck to the river, unless 2 overcards or an otherwise scary board appears. Save your money and pick a better time to get involved for that many bets preflop, like with AK or AQ suited.


DN


wtf is JoeBob, anyways?....i was expecting to see "NBA Prez"...

I don't think it's an easy fold. I don't think it's necessarily a bad fold, but I don't think it's easy. With a pot this size, you rate to take 3-4 people to the river with you if you flop a set.


It's probably safe to assume that you're against an overpair somewhere, so you really want to flop a set. If overcards come without a ten, then don't take a turn card off, even if it looks like you're getting the right price - you might be drawing to an under-set.


If you flop an overpair, you probably want to take a turn card off for top set. But don't be afraid to let it go if a raising war breaks out on the flop.


If you flop a set, buckle up and jam the pot. If you've accidentally flopped an under-set, that's unfortunate - live with it.


Somebody pointed out that the higher pairs have the same chance to flop a set that you do. That's true, but immaterial. The only way you really get hurt is if you both flop sets, and that's a way long shot. If you flop a set and they don't, they get hurt bad. If they flop a set and you don't, you don't care because you're gone.


Regards, Lee

First it's low limit HE. Where? In the bay area this would very often be the scenario: 1st raiser

A7s-AK and all pocket pairs. 2nd raiser same but add in K10s, Q9s, J10s, KQo, Q10s, Q10o. 3rd raiser: I wanna play this hand for the big pot I'm

gonna cap it with 67s. Or some such hand.


Now this may sound a little crazy but I've seen it too many times. It blows me away still when I see it. But I no longer think to make any comments, just sit in amusement and think I love this table. However this makes it tough to beat too. hard to put anyone on a hand. Very hard.


I'm certainly not saying this is the case all the time or that it was in your situation. However your desciption of somewhat loose is too vague. By who's standards is it somewhat loose? I can tell you that vegas somewhat loose and Northern California somewhat loose are like ultra tight vs

maniacle no fold-em loose by comparison. (I am exaggerating a bit but you get the point.) I have been in these games too many times to see that same pocket tens hold up w/o improvement all the way to the river.


I have had this type hand and flopped a draw that kept me because of pot size and minimal betting after the flop say 789 type flop and when it actually got checked to me on the river I just turned over and said "I can't win" and saw everyone muck.


I will fold this hand at times pre-flop of course. But the game texture and players dictate that. So while I like what other have already stated, dynasty, lee jones, as usual the answer still can be "it depends".


Do not underestimate Lee Jones thoughts on this too. Most importantly I see from him is the ability to not be tied into a hand emotionally. Making it very easy to just casually muck it no big deal when the flop isnt right. Not a single second guess on it. And no heartache.


just my .02

Lee,


What about the possibility that he flops a set with TT a board that includes other Broadway cards? Now he is in a big pot with a set but anyone with any straight draw has odds. Should that enter into his thinking? I would think that he might rather have 66 here than TT. He is almost worse off because of the tempation to play on when the flop is all under T, plus the possibility of trouble boards like TQx, TKx, TAx, TJx since anyone with any piece is continuing on in the hand.


Hmmmm.


KJS

At the flop there would be about 20 bets in the pot. Let's say at showdown there's between 32 and 40. There's about a 1/8 chance of flopping a T. Your EV would be between 4 and 5. It's costing you 4 to bet. So that might seem like you could call, but a fair amount of times you'll catch your T and lose, which will cost a lot of money. So you would want your implied odds to be higher to call 4 bets.


The type of hands you would want to call with would be hands like AA, KK, AK suited, which are not so likely to improve to second best hands.

I think you and Lee are both right. Lee said it wasn't an easy fold. If you do the math, the EV looks to come out to something a little over 4, the cost of the bet. But if you take into account the times you'll flop a T and still lose, that would seem to move the balances to fold. So it's a fold, but not a no-brainer.

Commerce Casino. UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 3-bets, UTG+3 calls, folded to the cutoff who caps. I fold. Blinds fold.


Flop 9c 10h 3h. My flop came. I was pissed. UTG bets. Called to the cutoff who raises. Everyone else calls.


Turn Ks. UTG bets. Folded to cutoff who calls.


River 7s. UTG checks. Cutoff bets. UTG calls.


UTG shows QQ. Cutoff has J8s for the straight. Go figure....

The implied odds of seeing the flop with a pair of tens in the hole make this an extremely easy decision. If you would fold in this position, you are welcome in my game any time.


If an AK8 falls on the flop after the betting is capped preflop, you are such a longshot to win that you most certainly would no longer be getting correct odds to call, implied or otherwise.


Did you hear that sound, Dynasty? That was the sound of your credibility stock crashing.


Lowlife Scum

Actually, your implied odds are not that great because of the huge up front cost of entering the pot. This is the same reason you wouldn't call 3 cold with JTs. If you were getting 5 callers for 2 bets rather than 5 for 4 bets, it would be much more possible to recoup the underlay with future bets, and calling would become correct. With the 4 bet up front cost, this is no longer the case. Because of this, I will take the immediate underlay for 2 bets, but not for 4. For 4 bets, I need the pot to be laying me immediate set flopping odds.

depends on whos betting. if theyre rocks who only bet premium, then i may tend to fold. but i may also play it like a small pair and see the flop, no set or draw..im out. kinda the same principle to me...


maybe even fold with my overpair to more action.


ive had to fold AKos preflop a few times. it sucked, but i did it. i knew the guys raising and their standards. especially the reraisers. one flop came K high...and i may have been stuck had i went to the flop, just to see the guys flopped set of Ks. i was relieved with that one. but with a mid pair....i mightve seen the flop...maybe....depends...


b

its like the same principle of an EP raiser with 1 caller to ya, and you have a small pair in late or in a blind. your not reallyt getting the odds but if you hit your set, youll collect, if not, you can easily release.


its also good for your bankroll to know when NOT to chase EVEN THOUGH the odds justify it.


good points lee


b

Since you have a 12% chance of making your set on the flop, and are already being paid 4:1 for your preflop call, the implied odds obviously favor at least staying through the flop, and possibly further.


Lowlife Scum

I was close enuf to correct in the assumptions I made in my post above in this particular instance. Again the most important information was left out. Players and texture. As is often the case in California(I have found)LL games the UTG guy may have the legitimate hand but the capper could be on any cheese! He just wants to play and make the pot BIGGGG! As for the other players and raiser? They didnt stay with the hand very long so how dominated by these raisers was TT? Obviously he was dominated by QQ but nowhere else. Say one of the others, the 3-better had AQ. OK he can 3-bet to isolate a little and cut the field. But he didnt have AK, JJ, QQ, KK, AA. So now how badly dominated?


In a more "normal" say LV style game this hand is played head-up for 4 bets between utg and utg+2(I think he was the 3bettor) or 3 ways with the TT in there. Now if it's 3-ways, pre-flop, 3 bets when it gets to TT, this player actually has probably two good choices.


1) 4 bet to really push other hands out and get a 411 if the cap is 5 bets. In other words find out if UTG is strong enuf to cap and gain information. But if cap is 4 bets call and see if UTG caps to again gain information.


2) muck and come back another time.


Now mind you, if I'm in LV I muck TT also. As an example: Last November I was in the Horseshoe playing a little 4-8 waiting for a 10-20. I had not seen a flop in 4 complete rounds. I'm UTG with AKs and open raise. UTG+1 mucks, UTG+2 flips over pocket 9's and says these are trash and mucks. Now he had me beat pre-flop. But he was observant and I was tight-aggressive so he's correct most of the time in laying it down. And I am 2:1 to flop a A or K and he knows those cards will kill him.


Does any of this dribble make sense or am I making too much of things?

Are the players really so bad that you can make 16 more small bets from the flop on, if you hit your set?


Even if you can recoup the preflop underlay, it will be pretty close to break-even, and with HUGE variance. This is not the best time to be investing your chips.


Eric

he layed down that easy? time to bluff a little id say? 99? that be a reraise for me unless you were 'only' raising with top stuff...


even then i might repop ya /images/wink.gif


btw...if they were folding this easily...you couldve controlled that table. they were reacting to you it seems. i know its only 1 hand and limited info to me, but that was enough to see a possible opening for profit sitting there.


course then ya get caught bluffing into the nuts...haha


b

A lot had been said about this thread and as usual I think there is no concrete, definitive answer. Although there are theoreticians who would play by the book and utilize pot odds as the primary factor, there are those who would consider the texture of the game and players' tendencies/abilities.


In my observation, AC games are generally tighter than those in LV and going with what I read and heard from other players who have played there, CA seem to be the loosest.


In AC, I have noticed that in a multi-way, capped betting, players are mostly composed of 2-3 with real hands and a couple who are there for the ride hoping to snag the miracle card.


To illustrate, the following hand occurred very recently at the 7.50-15 game at Trop. The pulse of the game fluctuates erratically from tight-passive to loose-aggressive because of the frequent change of players. BTW, I was not involved in the hand.


UTG folds to UTG+1 an aggressive player(AP) who raised. a weak player(WP), a good player(GP) called, a good, aggressive player (GAP) re-raised, button, a decent player(DP) capped. Everybody called.


Flop K 9 8 with 2 diamonds.


BB bets, AP raises, WP, GP and GAP called, button re-raises, BB calls, AP capped. Everybody called except WP.


Turn Q not diamonds.


BB checks, AP bets, GP called, GAP re-raises. Everybody called.


River T diamonds.


BB quickly bets out, AP mucked disgustedly mumbling about his pocket 9s, GP paused for a about a minute and called. GAP gave his cards to the dealer and said to keep it to show for later. Button showed me his rockets and mucked.


BB turned up 6 7 diamonds for a SF. GP showed broadway. GAP's cards were QQ.


Go figure who got the correct odds.


This shows that the game is texture/player dependent and sometimes one's logic and reasoning is clouded by the pot size.

You would even have to do even better because of the times you hit your set and lose. If LS's logic were correct, one should call 4 bets to play 22. It's obvious that the strength of the pair has to come into consideration.

I don't think it's an easy fold.


It is an easy fold. Even if you're playing with absolute maniacs, you shouldn't be calling four bets cold pre-flop with TT. It the wrong hand to either (1) call against "legitimate" raises or (2) go to war with against maniacal raisers.


overcards come without a ten, then don't take a turn card off, even if it looks like you're getting the right price - you might be drawing to an under-set...


Somebody pointed out that the higher pairs have the same chance to flop a set that you do. That's true, but immaterial.


These two statements don't seem to mesh together well.


First, it's insane to cold-call four bets pre-flop if you're going to muck the hand for one bet on the flop. Your're just thowing away money by playing that way.


Second, it's very material that any other bigger pairs are equally likely to flop a set. Pre-flop, you not only need to consider that you are behind but that you are also drawing second or third best.


It's the combination of being behind and drawing at least second best which makes this an easy fold.

I haven't bothered to do the math. However, EricH makes the critical point when he addresses that it will be very difficult to recoup enough bets post-flop when you do flop a set to make up for all the times when you don't flop a set.

Actually, your implied odds are not that great because of the huge up front cost of entering the pot.


Agreed. This statment and EricH's more direct comment that it will be difficult to recoup enough bets post-flop are the keys to making folding the correct play.

The math comes out about the same (that is, EV = about 4), if you just consider the probability of hitting a set and assume you win if you hit a set. But when you take into account that you'll sometimes lose even when you flop a set, plus the fact that TT has very little chance of winning on its own, then it's a clear fold. Not just the possibility of making a set, but the strength of the pair has to be considered. Clearly AA can call 4 bets.

And having to pay 4 bets. If you only had to pay 1 or 2 bets, you would call, even if you knew for sure you were behind and even though you could be drawing to second best. I'll bet you could even call 3 bets here. 3's the tough one to decide.

Agreed.


If it were two bets to me, I would often 3-bet since the original raiser will often hold AK, AQ, or some other non-pair hand. The 3-bet is especailly good if the first raiser is on your immediate right.


However, when someone else 3-bets, the situation is very dicey. That situation requires excellent judgement.