$10/20 HE- Low-limit guppy decides to test the waters upstream [Archive]

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Easy E

03-21-2004, 01:41 AM

I decided to take a shot at $10/20 recently and see how I could do against what should be a much better set of players than the passive-silly low-limit pros that I'm used to playing against. Also, I figure that it can't do anything but help my overall game and possibly my low-limit game, by punishing me for any bad "habits" that I might be bringing with me.
To me, $10/20 is middle-limit as opposed to low-limit, so I'm posting various hands from my first session in this forum for y'all to rip me up on. If this isn't the limit to post in, let me know. I've interspersed some comments within the hands as I remember them - hopefully y'all will have something to say.

As the preference is to have only a few hands within one post, I will be putting out a series of these as I can finish putting them in written form. Please weigh in at any point in any of the hands in various posts and let me know where I screwed up.
In fact, I'll sweeten the pot a little- I give you 2+2 verbal sharks free reign to abuse me as much as you'd like! That is, it has to be intended to be constructive, even if what you actually say is harsher than steel wool.

 (Where did I get the money, you ask, Ulysses? Could it be that I made a big score with the craps "system of the stars" that I haven't shared yet?!? Only the Shadow knows…..) 

I was a little nervous going in, since my bankroll isn't ready to handle this high a game (no comments or laughter, please!) and my game is a) rusty and b) based primarily on low-limit experience. But, I figure, no pain no gain- I'll try to treat it mentally like tuition if I get clobbered.
My plan going in was to play tight- y'all can be the judge of the accuracy of that rating- and concentrate mainly on what I was doing and how I might be coming across. I assumed I'd have a weakness in reading players and dealing with aggression, since I have to do so little of that at low-limits normally.

My resolve to be tight was tested early on- I folded AJ offsuit in middle position on my first orbit and the flop would have given me the top two winning pair. 2 hands later, I get AJoff again but I resist the urge when UTG raises and I muck it.

The first hand that I actually played was in the BB, when one early limper folds everyone else and I check my T8offsuit. I felt much better about my foray upstream when the J97 with two hearts flops. I checkraise, the limper reraises and I cap with the nuts (glad that I didn't have to sweat anything on my first hand!). The turn and river are offsuit rags, with the limper check-calling me on the turn and dumping the river. He claimed to have been drawing to a straight- I don't know whether to believe him, given the flop aggression.

I then go back to folding, not even defending my blinds. I wavered a little when I was dealt a KQs in early middle position when everyone had folded to me should I have raised? , but didn't hesitate to dump 33 soon after when it was raised in front of me.

My patience is finally rewarded when I find Red Rockets in the SB. A player whom I think is tight-aggressive raises in the cutoff and I decide to call. We see the 8c4d7c flop heads up. I check intending to raise but the cutoff checks stupid play #1? Should I have bet as this hand was more likely to hit a blind hand and therefore I'm more likely to get called? (Do I WANT to get called?) Or am I representing a big hand here, defending my SB preflop? I bet the offsuit 7 on the turn, folding the player.

My last hand for this particular post- I've folded all of my hands until I get KK in late position, I raise one early-position caller. SB calls, BB reraise, limper calls. I think for a short while and cap it; all three players call?! Flop comes Q79 with two spades. BB bets out, limper calls, I raise out the SB, BB pops it again and I call heads-up. I thought I shouldn't give away my hand here. Is it a mistake to try to string people along in middle limits?
Turn is a red Ten, BB bets out. I wasn't sure what to read him for, so I just called here. Jack offsuit comes on the river; BB checks, I bet, he calls with AQ. Was this last bet foolish? I have most of the Kings and I don't put him on an 8 here.
And what about the play of the AQ on the river here? Does my turn bet confuse him or scare him?

More "$10/20 guppy" posts to come as I can put them together. Sharpen those knives!

Manzanita

03-21-2004, 02:18 AM

Easy E,

I'll just comment on a couple of the situations that you mention.

[ QUOTE ]
My resolve to be tight was tested early on- I folded AJ offsuit in middle position on my first orbit

[/ QUOTE ]

If it was folded to you, you should have open-raised with your AJo here.

[ QUOTE ]
2 hands later, I get AJoff again but I resist the urge when UTG raises and I muck it

[/ QUOTE ]

You made a good fold here. There's a good chance that your hand is dominated.

[ QUOTE ]
I wavered a little when I was dealt a KQs in early middle position when everyone had folded to me should I have raised?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you should have open-raised here. Given you didn't raise, you should have at least called.

[ QUOTE ]
I've folded all of my hands until I get KK in late position, I raise one early-position caller. SB calls, BB reraise, limper calls. I think for a short while and cap it; all three players call?! Flop comes Q79 with two spades. BB bets out, limper calls, I raise out the SB, BB pops it again and I call heads-up. I thought I shouldn't give away my hand here. Is it a mistake to try to string people along in middle limits?
Turn is a red Ten, BB bets out. I wasn't sure what to read him for, so I just called here. Jack offsuit comes on the river; BB checks, I bet, he calls with AQ. Was this last bet foolish? I have most of the Kings and I don't put him on an 8 here.
And what about the play of the AQ on the river here? Does my turn bet confuse him or scare him?

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you have the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif? It makes a difference in this hand. In any case I like your preflop play and also your play on the flop. However, the reason I just call the BB's 3-bet on the flop is because (1) the BB has bet/raised every opportunity that he's had; it's possible that he has AA or QQ putting you in serious trouble; and (2) there's a flush draw on the board which the BB could be betting; I want to make sure another spade doesn't come on the turn before I raise again with my overpair. On the turn just calling is OK (but if you thought you had the better hand you should have raised especially since you have position on him). On the end you have an easy bet after the BB checks (given his aggression it is highly unlikely that he would back off with the nuts, and you have the second nut hand; further, the only nut hand that makes sense given his play is him holding the A /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gif).

-- Manzanita

Garland

03-21-2004, 04:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
My resolve to be tight was tested early on- I folded AJ offsuit in middle position on my first orbit and the flop would have given me the top two winning pair. 2 hands later, I get AJoff again but I resist the urge when UTG raises and I muck it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You play tighter than me! That's not easy!! If you're in MP, and everyone folds to you, it's a good raising hand. I routinely fold AJo UTG or UTG+1 or other positions based on how aggressive the table is, but in your spot, it's worth a raise.

[ QUOTE ]
I then go back to folding, not even defending my blinds. I wavered a little when I was dealt a KQs in early middle position when everyone had folded to me should I have raised? , but didn't hesitate to dump 33 soon after when it was raised in front of me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, open raise with KQs. It's a legitimate hand, but you don't mind winning just the blinds.

[ QUOTE ]
My patience is finally rewarded when I find Red Rockets in the SB. A player whom I think is tight-aggressive raises in the cutoff and I decide to call. We see the 8c4d7c flop heads up. I check intending to raise but the cutoff checks stupid play #1? Should I have bet as this hand was more likely to hit a blind hand and therefore I'm more likely to get called? (Do I WANT to get called?) Or am I representing a big hand here, defending my SB preflop? I bet the offsuit 7 on the turn, folding the player.

[/ QUOTE ]

It sounds like your player is trying to steal the blinds (especially since you haven't been defending). Since you haven't played anything but the nuts, he probably sensed you had a genuine hand from the SB and were setting a trap and gave up on it after the flop came down. Your image means so much more in the middle limits. Do you see that now? You did nothing wrong. You just weren't getting anything more out of the hand. You could make a case for 3-betting before the flop as he'd be forced to call that. But since you read him as aggressive you were hoping he'd take the lead and bet out the flop. No go, no problems! You win.

[ QUOTE ]
My last hand for this particular post- I've folded all of my hands until I get KK in late position, I raise one early-position caller. SB calls, BB reraise, limper calls. I think for a short while and cap it; all three players call?! Flop comes Q79 with two spades. BB bets out, limper calls, I raise out the SB, BB pops it again and I call heads-up. I thought I shouldn't give away my hand here. Is it a mistake to try to string people along in middle limits?
Turn is a red Ten, BB bets out. I wasn't sure what to read him for, so I just called here. Jack offsuit comes on the river; BB checks, I bet, he calls with AQ. Was this last bet foolish? I have most of the Kings and I don't put him on an 8 here.
And what about the play of the AQ on the river here? Does my turn bet confuse him or scare him?

[/ QUOTE ]

In my opinion, BB made a mistake to reraise such a solid player like you. But when you capped it preflop, he should have sensed a big pair from you. If he just called your raise, he played the AQ with a Qxx flop fine. In middle limits, you have to play your top pair/top kicker hands very aggressively. Overpairs should play even more aggressively! You did just fine before the flop, and after the flop. He could have a set and you should be ready to call down your overpair as long as you two are heads up.

I predict you'll do just fine in middle limits! The downfall of many players is they get bored and start playing sub-standard cards. It's a quick way to get broke. I don't sense that from you, and I'm not recommending you loosen up right away, but you should start adding some creativity after awhile to keep them on from reading your hands so easily.

Good luck and keep us posted. I like your good start. I don't think you're a fish at all.

Garland

Easy E

03-22-2004, 02:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My resolve to be tight was tested early on- I folded AJ offsuit in middle position on my first orbit

[/ QUOTE ]

If it was folded to you, you should have open-raised with your AJo here.

 I don't remember if it was raised or not. It might not have been, since I remembered being mad about the flop that I missed. I had decided not to get involved with too much at the very beginning and AJoff didn't look too strong for my first orbit at the table 

[ QUOTE ]
2 hands later, I get AJoff again but I resist the urge when UTG raises and I muck it

[/ QUOTE ]

You made a good fold here. There's a good chance that your hand is dominated.

 I didn't know what to think about the poker gods waving the same hand in my face so soon /images/graemlins/wink.gif 

[ QUOTE ]
I wavered a little when I was dealt a KQs in early middle position when everyone had folded to me should I have raised?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you should have open-raised here. Given you didn't raise, you should have at least called.

 thought so- i was overly committed to being tight and these hands often get me in trouble at low-limits, because everyone calls everything 

[ QUOTE ]
I've folded all of my hands until I get KK in late position, I raise one early-position caller. SB calls, BB reraise, limper calls. I think for a short while and cap it; all three players call?! Flop comes Q79 with two spades. BB bets out, limper calls, I raise out the SB, BB pops it again and I call heads-up. I thought I shouldn't give away my hand here. Is it a mistake to try to string people along in middle limits?
Turn is a red Ten, BB bets out. I wasn't sure what to read him for, so I just called here. Jack offsuit comes on the river; BB checks, I bet, he calls with AQ. Was this last bet foolish? I have most of the Kings and I don't put him on an 8 here.
And what about the play of the AQ on the river here? Does my turn bet confuse him or scare him?

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you have the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif? It makes a difference in this hand. no, the Kc. What do you do differently-cap with the Ks backdoor draw, call with my Kc? 

In any case I like your preflop play and also your play on the flop. However, the reason I just call the BB's 3-bet on the flop is because (1) the BB has bet/raised every opportunity that he's had; it's possible that he has AA or QQ putting you in serious trouble;
 I discounted the big two pairs, perhaps more than I should, because of the preflop action. I went into the $10/20 with the assumption that aggression would be more frequent and therefore it would mean less- a bad idea?
This is probably a low-limit disease carry-over as well, since LL almost always slow-play the big pairs if a raise comes from a late position. Half the time it is paranoia. 

and (2) there's a flush draw on the board which the BB could be betting; I want to make sure another spade doesn't come on the turn before I raise again with my overpair.
 I'm sure the draw is coming along anyway, but shouldn't I be charging them the most that I can before they get there? Granted I may be building a bigger pot to make their odds closer to correct, but is that not misleading for them? They have to pay the wrong price on the flop to get to that bigger pot. 

-- Manzanita

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, Manz

Easy E

03-22-2004, 02:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My resolve to be tight was tested early on- I folded AJ offsuit in middle position on my first orbit and the flop would have given me the top two winning pair. 2 hands later, I get AJoff again but I resist the urge when UTG raises and I muck it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You play tighter than me! That's not easy!!
 How could it be anything BUT "Easy" for me?! After you read my other posts, let's see if you still say that 
If you're in MP, and everyone folds to you, it's a good raising hand. I routinely fold AJo UTG or UTG+1 or other positions based on how aggressive the table is, but in your spot, it's worth a raise.
 No, I was UTG+1 or +2. Besides, it had already flopped top pair... and I had no idea how aggressive the table was yet 

[ QUOTE ]
My patience is finally rewarded when I find Red Rockets in the SB. A player whom I think is tight-aggressive raises in the cutoff and I decide to call. We see the 8c4d7c flop heads up. I check intending to raise but the cutoff checks stupid play #1? Should I have bet as this hand was more likely to hit a blind hand and therefore I'm more likely to get called? (Do I WANT to get called?) Or am I representing a big hand here, defending my SB preflop? I bet the offsuit 7 on the turn, folding the player.

[/ QUOTE ]

It sounds like your player is trying to steal the blinds (especially since you haven't been defending). Since you haven't played anything but the nuts, he probably sensed you had a genuine hand from the SB and were setting a trap and gave up on it after the flop came down.
 Didn't think about that- I assumed that any preflop late raiser is coming after the blinds on the flop after the blind checks. Again, probably my low-limit hat is on too much 
Your image means so much more in the middle limits. Do you see that now? That implies that I even think about my image at low limits! Since it is almost a waste of time, I rarely do. 

You did nothing wrong. You just weren't getting anything more out of the hand. You could make a case for 3-betting before the flop as he'd be forced to call that. But since you read him as aggressive you were hoping he'd take the lead and bet out the flop. I wasn't sure that, with such a coordinated flop for a blind hand, there was any chance of him betting into my check. 
No go, no problems! You win. But I evidently missed a bet- can't do that! 

[ QUOTE ]
My last hand for this particular post- I've folded all of my hands until I get KK in late position, I raise one early-position caller. SB calls, BB reraise, limper calls. I think for a short while and cap it; all three players call?! Flop comes Q79 with two spades. BB bets out, limper calls, I raise out the SB, BB pops it again and I call heads-up. I thought I shouldn't give away my hand here. Is it a mistake to try to string people along in middle limits?
Turn is a red Ten, BB bets out. I wasn't sure what to read him for, so I just called here. Jack offsuit comes on the river; BB checks, I bet, he calls with AQ. Was this last bet foolish? I have most of the Kings and I don't put him on an 8 here.
And what about the play of the AQ on the river here? Does my turn bet confuse him or scare him?

[/ QUOTE ]

In my opinion, BB made a mistake to reraise such a solid player like you. But when you capped it preflop, he should have sensed a big pair from you. If he just called your raise, he played the AQ with a Qxx flop fine. In middle limits, you have to play your top pair/top kicker hands very aggressively. Overpairs should play even more aggressively! As I said in my other reply, I made a mistake discounting the big pairs in his hand as a possibility, because of his preflop aggression. I knew that I would have to re-evaluate aggression at this level. 

You did just fine before the flop, and after the flop. He could have a set and you should be ready to call down your overpair as long as you two are heads up.

I predict you'll do just fine in middle limits! The downfall of many players is they get bored and start playing sub-standard cards.

Good luck and keep us posted. I like your good start. I don't think you're a fish at all.

 better read my other posts first before you assume too much! ;P 

Garland

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks also, Garland. I look forward to some more critical comments down the road!

TJSWAN

03-22-2004, 05:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Did you have the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif? It makes a difference in this hand. no, the Kc. What do you do differently-cap with the Ks backdoor draw, call with my Kc? 



[/ QUOTE ]

Easy E,

Manzanita already mentioned that looking for the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif in your hand is in part trying to determine what your opponet has. I think what he also meant is this:

If your pair does not have the suit of the 2 flush on board be careful if you hit your set with the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

Happened to me in a tourney a year ago. Hit my set of J's on the river and someone's flush got there same time. Oooops!!! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Tim

Manzanita

03-22-2004, 09:06 PM

Easy E,

[ QUOTE ]
Did you have the Ks ? It makes a difference in this hand.
no, the Kc. What do you do differently-cap with the Ks backdoor draw, call with my Kc?

[/ QUOTE ]

With the spade draw on the flop, noting whether you have the Ks may help you narrow down the BB's hand. In general when the BB 3-bets preflop I tend to put him primarily on AA, KK, QQ, or AK (with a smaller probability of holding JJ, TT, or AQs). On the flop the BB again 3-bets. Now if you held the Ks (with the Qs on board) then it is unlikely that the BB is on a flush draw. At this point in the hand I would put the BB primarily on AA or QQ; to a lesser extent I would guess that he had AQ or KK. But since you don't have the Ks then I would also add AsKs as a possible hand for the BB to have.
Note that I'm making the assumption that the BB has a hand of at least top-pair when I'm making these guesses. Observing how your opponents play their hands should give you a feeling as to whether my assumption is reasonable or not.

[ QUOTE ]
I discounted the big two pairs, perhaps more than I should, because of the preflop action. I went into the $10/20 with the assumption that aggression would be more frequent and therefore it would mean less- a bad idea?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is player dependent, of course, but in general the games are more aggressive as you move up in limits. However, I don't think that it necessarily means that you should disregard it. I believe that players are more aggressive because they are more willing to bet (or raise) when they think that they have the best hand. Players read hands better and are more willing to trust their instincts on how to play. Use a player's aggressiveness (or passivity) as another criteria when evaluating his or her game.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure the draw is coming along anyway, but shouldn't I be charging them the most that I can before they get there? Granted I may be building a bigger pot to make their odds closer to correct, but is that not misleading for them? They have to pay the wrong price on the flop to get to that bigger pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the BB's behavior through the flop, he is playing like he either has a very big hand or a very big draw. Even though you have a good hand with your KK, you can be beat or outdrawn. Generally speaking, I only like to keep putting in raises when I know that I have the best of it; and if I were in your shoes I would not be confident that I do in fact have the best hand at this point. This is why I like waiting until the turn to see how the BB reacts. If the draw gets there or not and how the BB's acts will give me more information to use in determining how I want to proceed.

-- Manzanita