turning good hands into 72o.

[jaydoggie]

I recently read, and reread, reread TPFAP for the past 3 days. This is one of the concepts that Im interested in, but Im not quite understanding.

"beginning no-limit players make a common mistake, putting in fairly big bets or raises before the flop with hands that are very good, but not so good as to welcome a reraise."

referring to AQ/images/graemlins/heart.gif or TT.

Ive found myself in situations like this late in multis, or in the mid rounds. blinds 75/150. i open raise top 450. and someone comes back allin, and i hold a hand like 88/99 or AJs.

do i open raise with hands like this? or do i limp? so confused /images/graemlins/confused.gif

the reason i dont open raise with 72 is because when i get called im in trouble. and becuase i play mostly poor low limit players i do get flat called alot. but later in multis i run into better players and alot of them play back.

maybe the keyword/phrase is "fairly big bets"?

someone help me.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]

Ive found myself in situations like this late in multis, or in the mid rounds. blinds 75/150. i open raise top 450. and someone comes back allin, and i hold a hand like 88/99 or AJs.


[/ QUOTE ]

You want to limp those hands in a typical situation. Short-handed or short-stacked, limp turns into push.

eastbay

[Bluff1]

Aq, TT, JJ, and even QQ are the hands the cause people the most amount of trouble. In early position I would fold all those hands except qq and I would probably limp with it. It late position I would raise and if someone reraised me it would determine on my read of the player on what I would do. I also want to say that if I'm short stacked or half of the average stack in a multi way with the blinds you mentioned I would just move in with them. For what its worth this is the same reason why I almost always limp in with ak in early positions because if someone reraises you all in it's just to hard to know what move to make most of the time. But again short or half of average stack in multis I just move in with it.

[AJo Go All In]

folding JJ to no raise and open-limping with QQ are, in most cases, poor plays.

[t_perkin]

This is where position and the table is important.

If the table is not very aggressive PF (i.e. almost no reraises) then I make a lot of small raises (2.5BB) in CO/Button with mid PP - especially if it tends to get checked to me on the flop (take the free card).
AJs I may play in a similar way in CO/Button.
All of these hands I would fold to just about any reraise.

If the table is more aggressive then I would be folding a lot more.

In EP I would limp if I think there is a 50% ish chance of getting in with no raise. If a raise does come I would call a min raise and not a lot more (unnless there are a lot of players in)

If I don't think there is a 50% chance of getting in with just a limp then I would fold up to JJ and AQs.

MP is just half way between EP and LP. It is just a matter of thinking how many players you are going to get calling and/or raising behind you.

tim

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
Aq, TT, JJ, and even QQ are the hands the cause people the most amount of trouble. In early position I would fold all those hands except qq and I would probably limp with it. It late position I would raise and if someone reraised me it would determine on my read of the player on what I would do. I also want to say that if I'm short stacked or half of the average stack in a multi way with the blinds you mentioned I would just move in with them. For what its worth this is the same reason why I almost always limp in with ak in early positions because if someone reraises you all in it's just to hard to know what move to make most of the time. But again short or half of average stack in multis I just move in with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You must play with players that are 10x better than the ones I play with in PP $30 SnGs.

I'll call a re-raise all-in with JJ and be way ahead 5 times out of 6. Throwing away AQ, even to a re-raise, in these games is like burning hundred dollar bills. You're going to see Ax when you play back way more often than AK.

eastbay

[Bluff1]

This is the difference in where you play most of your games east and where I play mine. At stars if you call an all in reraise with jj or aq you will be dead most of the time at stars. I agree at party I have no fear and am hyper aggersive with such hands but again at stars playing the hands the way you mentioned will break you very quickly.

[Bluff1]

Again at stars I will muck jj from an ep all day long. There is little vaule when someone will almost always raise you and you can't move in with it early. Again later in the game its an all in hand. But early in a trny jj, tt, and Aq have little value if no value from an ep.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
This is the difference in where you play most of your games east and where I play mine. At stars if you call an all in reraise with jj or aq you will be dead most of the time at stars. I agree at party I have no fear and am hyper aggersive with such hands but again at stars playing the hands the way you mentioned will break you very quickly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't doubt it. I've definitely played in games where what you say makes a lot of sense. I just wonder why people select tougher games intentionally.

But, go ahead and stay over there. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

eastbay

[Bluff1]

I have acutally started playing party these days a little can't believe how bad they play there. I've had to adjust a lot from stars to party.

[TheGrifter]

JJ certainly has value from EP. It's certainly worth a limp early in a tourney when the blinds are tiny, and a raise later when everyone tightens up and an UTG raise will grab the blinds.

I actually disagree with you about the assertion that players at stars don't push with crap, there are plenty of hyper-aggresive players in stars multi's at every buy in. However, even if you are correct and you know people aren't likely to come over the top of the a raise with less than QQ-AA then you love JJ in EP.

Especially when the blinds become large I'd toss out a 3 or 4x BB raise with JJ everytime and win a lot of chips when JJ is the best hand out there. (Pretty damn often)

As for open limping with QQ I almost never do, and if I do it is with the intention of limp re-raising if there is a player at the table who has been raising too many pots.

As for AQ in EP I tend to agree with you. But AQ is much much weaker than JJ. I play AQ for an open raise in LP and muck it in EP unless shortstacked in tournies. The exception to this may be if I am in a rebuy or low buy in tourney where people drastically overplay Ax (yes, on stars)

[Bluff1]

I can understand you reason for limping early when the blinds are small but I still would muck jj. I'm not saying everyone at stars is a two plus twoer all I'm saying is calling reraises with jj, qq, aq at stars is a good way to go broke.

[TheGrifter]

Anytime someone reraises you, it's time to be cautious but folding QQ to a reraise, I better have a damn good read on a player to do so. If I know that a guy won't make a move without aces or kings in the hole, then sure, I'll fold.

However, if limping and folding to a raise with queens from EP is your standard play then you are giving up a lot of value.

[lawsy]

i thought that this meant that if youre going to preflop raise in nlhe at a tough table, when players are playing typically tight, you are usually satisfied with stealing the blinds.however it is a shame to:
a)make everyone fold when you have a potentially powerful hand that could win a big pot.
b)as people play tight in tournaments, if you are re raised you may have to muck the hand expensively.

so you may as well steal blinds with trash and let pots brew when legitimate, albeit drawing hands.

if the table isnt tight, then its much harder to steal blinds, and mixing it in the pot with any decent starting hand has got to be worth it!!?

[CrisBrown]

Hi lawsy,

[ QUOTE ]
if the table isnt tight, then its much harder to steal blinds, and mixing it in the pot with any decent starting hand has got to be worth it!!?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hands change dramatically in value depending on whether the table is tight or loose. At a loose table, pots tend to go to improved hands (two pair or better), so hands like AQo or TT aren't as strong on their own right.

If you're going to play AQo at a loose table, you're really hoping to hit two pair or a Broadway straight; AQs adds the flush possibility, and that's why you should often muck AQo but play AQs. Similarly, if you're going to play TT at a loose table, you're playing it for set value rather than pair value.

So in general, you'd rather get in cheaply on these hands.

Cris

[Bluff1]

I don't fold to a raise with qq from an ep. I think I have caused a little be of confusion here. Basically early in a trny from ep I tend to limp in with qq. I will call a raise with it as well. But I won't go all in with qq early playing at stars.

[Prickly Pete]

Not sure if this was ever really addressed, but look at it like this. There are 3 possibilities once you raise with TT or 72. They can all fold (it didn't matter which you had). Someone can reraise and force you to fold (it didn't matter which you had). Someone can flat call you. Here is why you'd still rather have something like TT rather than 72o. If you hit your set with TT, you're golden. With 72o, you will hate just about every flop.

But I think Sklansky is mostly talking about multi-table tourneys where you don't want to put your life on the line with these "good but not great" hands if you're going to be reraised and have to muck.