Online $10/20: T8s in SB.

[LarsVegas]

I think there are plenty of ways I could play this hand, but how do you like the line I chose?

Online $10-20 ring-game. Two EP/MP limpers to me in SB where I find Td8d. I complete and BB checks his option.

Flop: Kd-5s-2d. I check, BB checks, EP1 bets, EP2 calls, I call, BB now check-raises, EP1 and EP2 both call. I pause for a while and seriously consider a fold before I call again.

Turn: 9d. I bet, BB raises, EP1 cold-calls, EP2 folds, I call.

River: 4h. I check, BB bets, EP1 folds, I call.

Comments?

Results in a while.

Lars

[Manzanita]

LarsVegas,

I suspect that you are beat but I would have played the hand the way that you did.

The way that BB played the flop I would guess that he either has 2-pair (or possibly a set) or a flush draw. I don't think that he has 2-pair (or a set) since he should have checked on the river with those hands with a three-flush on board. And since he continued to bet after you represented a flush on the turn, it looks to me like he has a bigger flush.

-- Manzanita

[Garland]

I would avoid this entire mess my folding pre-flop. Two limpers and 1/2 bet to complete in the worst position? Too tenuous, and you will be hard pressed to get paid off very well if you do hit your hands. I might call if there were lots of limpers (say 4+), and even then I might wait for a suited connector rather than a 1-gapper. I'm very tight in the blinds. Take that with a grain of salt.

After the flop, I think you played it well. I might bet it first. With only 1 high card on the board, I think you're good for a semi-bluff. You might get people to fold on the turn if the flop missed everyone, and paid off if someone hits something along the way when you hit a diamond. In addition, it's a good way to get information by taking the lead. Aggressive opponents should raise with the K and you'll know where you stand.

Garland

[LarsVegas]

I am seemingly on a little run of my own with regards to posting a lot of winning hands: BB showed 5d5s for a set of fives.

I am an allround player and play quite a bit of PL Omaha and PL/NL Holdem. Maybe this influences my limit Holdem play to some extent. The thing is, once I decide to not semi-bluff bet the flop (which in this situation, with this flop, I think I should almost every time), and the action behind me goes check-bet-call back to me, I am out of position with a ten high flush draw and no additional outs or backdoor draws and the pot is unraised preflop, I really don't think I am giving up on much by folding right then and there.

Now the big blind checkraises and it comes back to me with three other players in for two bets on the flop in a pot which was unraised before it. I don't know how often I am up against a higher flush draw here, but it is significantly often. However, I am getting 11-to-1 on this call and I am closing the action. I think I have a close call here.

On the turn, it's very rare these days that I suddenly lead out when catching my card. However, this time I felt that I really wouldn't like three bets going in on the turn. Once BB raised me, I feel I have no other option than to call him down - anyone think I should give even more heat?

lars

[SoBeDude]

Hi Garland,

After the flop, I think you played it well. I might bet it first. With only 1 high card on the board, I think you're good for a semi-bluff. You might get people to fold on the turn if the flop missed everyone, and paid off if someone hits something along the way when you hit a diamond. In addition, it's a good way to get information by taking the lead. Aggressive opponents should raise with the K and you'll know where you stand.

I think betting the flop here when the BB is the preflop raiser is a bad play.

You're drawing to a flush. You want customers in if you hit.

If you bet and the BB raises, he's forcing the other two to call 2 cold. You really don't want that. A check-raise if the limpers call one bet is a good play though. Or check-call. I think betting out is the worst of the three options.

-Scott

[SoBeDude]

Why didn't you ever raise with a made flush?

-Scott

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
LarsVegas,

I suspect that you are beat but I would have played the hand the way that you did.

The way that BB played the flop I would guess that he either has 2-pair (or possibly a set) or a flush draw. I don't think that he has 2-pair (or a set) since he should have checked on the river with those hands with a three-flush on board. And since he continued to bet after you represented a flush on the turn, it looks to me like he has a bigger flush.

-- Manzanita

[/ QUOTE ]

No way I'm playing it the same, and assuming the BB has you beat is weak-tight thinking. the BB is happy you bet out because now he can raise to protect your hand and hopefully fold a lone big diamond.

I'd have check-raised the turn. I'm not betting out here most of the time. I'll let the BB bet and I check-raise the turn most of the time. Now if I think the other two will call 2 cold, then I'll bet out AND STILL RERAISE.

It's a mistake to assume my flush is no good just because the BB is showing aggression. And since he raised preflop and check-raised the flop, I'd be inclined to think he did NOT have the flush.

-Scott

[bunky9590]

Preflop: fine 1/2 a bet with a mid suited one gapper. I like it.

Flop, I think someone has the King and if the table is aggressive, I check call, if the are loose passive, I lead.
But after the check call, checkraise call. I'm rooting for a diamond.

Turn: okay you hit your hand, now, how to win the pot. You hand is likely good right now but may not be later.
BB is the raiser, I may very well lead into him here. He can help you protect this hand if he raises for you. (He probably does NOT have the flush probably two pair from the BB) and is protecting it. If you lead he could put you on a big diamond and raise to shut out everyone else. Fine by me. Chase those big diamonds out. If he just calls, be wary if the board pairs on the river or another diamond falls.

If he raises and everyone folds to me, three bet his sorry behind. and play on from there.

River is a brick so I fire again. If he raises, call.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
I think betting the flop here when the BB is the preflop raiser is a bad play.


[/ QUOTE ]

Are you looking at a different hand???

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think betting the flop here when the BB is the preflop raiser is a bad play.


[/ QUOTE ]

Are you looking at a different hand???

[/ QUOTE ]

Gosh. I must be. maybe its the pain meds for my toothache?

Sorry /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

-Scott

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
Now the big blind checkraises and it comes back to me with three other players in for two bets on the flop in a pot which was unraised before it. I don't know how often I am up against a higher flush draw here, but it is significantly often. However, I am getting 11-to-1 on this call and I am closing the action. I think I have a close call here.


[/ QUOTE ]

You have a close 3-bet for value. Calling is not even close - folding isn't an option.

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn, it's very rare these days that I suddenly lead out when catching my card. However, this time I felt that I really wouldn't like three bets going in on the turn. Once BB raised me, I feel I have no other option than to call him down - anyone think I should give even more heat?

[/ QUOTE ]

The way you played the flop I don't mind betting out on the turn, but you are essentially announcing your hand and I think you have a better line (see below). When BB raises you have an easy re-raise here. If he makes it 4 bets you can call him down. I think you get more action on the turn if you check raise and trap one of those callers for 2 bets.

Why don't you feel you want to put in 3 bets on the turn? You played a suited one gap hand pre-flop. You called on the flop hoping to make your hand, you then proceeded to call a checkraise with a flush draw against 3 opponents (potential value re-raise here). You now make your hand and you don't want to put money in the pot? This whole line of reasoning screams weak-tight to me on this hand, sorry.

[GuyOnTilt]

Hey Lars,

You didn't say what your table image was at the time of this hand, but if it's tight and aggressive, you should not check and call this flop. I have no clue why everyone is telling you to check and call. That's wrong if you're perceived as a tight player who's not OVER aggressive. You bet this flop and it gets folded around back to you the majority of the time.

GoT

[LarsVegas]

"Why didn't you ever raise with a made flush?"

I agree it's debateable and maybe even downright wrong, but I also said that this hand was played unorthodox by me.

I guess the reason I bet out on the turn, is because I have now made my hand and cannot further improve it, but I am not *over the moon* with my hand. I got caught for a couple of bets on the flop with a lone, small flush draw without additional side-value, I have now made my hand and I just want to collect a few bets from here on and in. I am raised, I am fairly happy, yet again not over moon to the calling down, whilst if I get three-bet on the turn after checkraising it myself, I wouldn't feel very happy while calling down. Maybe this is weak/tight thinking, I don't know. Probably to some extent.

However, this is not a normal pot. There are 4 small bets in the flop before the flop. On the flop, all players that have seen the flop, put in 2 small bets each. How often do you see every player that has seen the flop put in half the pre-flop pot size each on the flop, except for heads-up, and a few three-way pots?

With the board twotone, I am certainly not feeling very good about my flush draw.

However, I will say this; Once it got heads-up and the river blanked, I suddenly felt really good about...err...calling him down. But hey! Should I ever feel *really good* with calling down? This is probably where I should've found a raise.

Part of the reason I started feeling a bit better about my hand, was that on the K-5-2 double diamonds flop; 4d3d, 6d4d and 6d3d are all possible holdings that go along nicely with BB's flop and turn play.

Oh well, back to the check-calling! ;-)

Laters,

lars

[SoBeDude]

Hi Lars,

There's nothing wrong with going into check-call mode - when it's appropriate.

I think, that with a made flush, you need to raise. Now if you get 3 bet, now you can just call to the showdown, but you need to raise once.

-Scott