AJsuited.

4-8 game, I'm first in from middle position, and open raise with AJ of clubs. It is folded back to the big blind who calls.


Flop Tc-Th-6s.


I am likely either still ahead, or else I am way behind. BB checks, I bet, BB calls.


Turn, 8c.


Check, I bet, and after a pause BB checkraises. With two overcards, and the flush draw I have to call here.


River, 2d.


BB bets, and I call.


Comments?

In this case the BB had A7 off, and had an inside straight draw on the turn and was semi bluffing.


He then started giving me poker lessons about calling checkraises with nothing.


The reason I posted this hand, is that I have had this situation 4 times in the last two days. Headsup with a paired board, I have either unimproved overcards, or a pocket pair, and I get checkraised on the turn. I called all four hands down, this time, once when the player was on a stone cold bluff, and twice I paid off trips. So I am even to maybe slightly ahead (because of the dead money in the pot), for the hands, and I am way ahead of where I would be if I folded all four, because of the preflop money.


Now the usual wisdom is to fold to a turn checkraise in LL, but here I would have lost more money because of the semibluffer, and the bluffer. Do I just call down those two guys, or do I have to call some other times when people play this strong against me, either as research or bluff prevention.


Did I run into an anomaly here, and should I be folding more often, or are these plays common enough in your LL games that I have to call absent of a read or past tendencies?


Thanks for your comments.

Bob T.

From my experience, it's very rare that a person checkraises on the turn with nothing. I think you lose 9 out of 10 times.

I think I might be done betting this one after the flop call. No real draws here and I don't have anything to showdown. Not knowing the player, I probably take the free shot at the flush.


If I do bet and am checkraised I will see if a club hits but I am not calling a river bet with A High. You will lose that bet 9 of 10 times in a LL game, IMO.


Very player dependent hand though. My comments are assuming I am against an unknown player.


KJS

You have to know your opponent. Heads up, the check-raise is a lot more likely to be a bluff or semi-bluff then with another player involved.


There were 9 SB in the pot, assuming I counted right at the time you bet on the turn, so he was betting 4 to win 13. So his play would have to work about 1/3 of the time to be worthwhile. Against an opponent who bluffs correctly, you should fold in this situation 1 out of 3 times, and call the other 2 times. Most players are not good enough to bluff in that situation correctly (about 1 out of 3 times), so you should fold more often than 1 out of 3 times. How much more often depends on the opponent.


Always folding or always calling is incorrect, because it allows an observant opponent to either always correctly bet for value or always correctly bluff.


Your bet on the turn is tricky too. If you're ahead, you should bet. If you're behind, you should bet if there's a 2 in 9 chance your opponent will fold with a worse hand. If you had a much worse hand, betting on a bluff would be an easy decision. With your actual hand, there's not much of a chance your opponent will lay down a worse hand. So your bet should be a bet for value. But you don't really have a good enough hand to bet for value. You've got a 'tweener, so just checking it through may have been better.

unless I'm missing something here you didn't call a checkraise with nothing, you had 2 overcards and a legitimate nut flush draw.


Have you considered 3 betting the turn? If you get capped then he's almost guarenteed to have a T or better. The only problem I see with the 3 bet in this situation is you really have to call a cap for the flush draw so if you miss you can save 1 bet on the river but that doesn't make up for the 2 extra bets on the turn.


Obviously I'm not convinced that you need to make this play but with a boat load of outs I'd definitely consider it. btw, this guy has no business giving anyone poker advice, I think his play was wrong on every street.

The question you should really be asking is: "Am I betting the turn correctly or are there times when I should be taking a freebie, both to improve if behind and to induce a bluff if ahead?"


I wasn't there for this hand or the other 3, but remember, you don't have to keep firing headsup.

You will lose that bet 9 of 10 times in a LL game, IMO.


If we can reduce your estimate to 7 out of 8 times, then a river call would be correct based on the size of the pot (7+ big bets). I wouldn't be so quick to fold Ace-high in a heads-up pot.

There are 8 BB (plus small blind less rake) in the pot when he makes his decision. If the estimate is 8 out of 9, then calling is correct.

I would have said:


Hey, my "nothing" (two overcards and flush draw) was better than the "nothing" that you checkraised with (one overcard and a gutshot draw). And furthermore, I don't recall signing up for any of your poker lessons.


Okay, I wouldn't have said any of that, but I'd have thought it, dammit! :-)

Hi Clarkmeister,


You are right, and I will some of the time check and call the river, but in all three of the cases, I was playing against players that I thought were fairly loose, and I thought it was likely that if they didn't hit the flop, I was ahead, and I was planning on checking the river down if I didn't improve.


Thanks, for your response,


Bob T.

Angry,


In this instance, I thought about making that play, and it probably would have won me the pot, but I don't know how I'll feel if it gets four bet back to me with a flush draw and a paired board, where I might be drawing dead.


Thanks for your ideas,


Bob T.

One of the things that I did consider here, is that he might have had something like QJ, or KQ of clubs and might be semibluff checkraising a lesser club draw, and that contributed to my decision to call on the river.


Thanks everybody for your responses,

Bob T.

My first thought was that the turn call was right and the river call was wrong (in a vacuum as they say), BUT your knowledge of the player made it right here.


Now, upon further reading...on the turn:


"Check, I bet, and after a pause BB checkraises"


This seems significant to me. If he planned to check-raise, there is no need for this pause, as he knew what he was going to do at the point he checked. This can mean only 2 things (I think):


1) He is bluffing and had to pause to decide if he wanted to check raise bluff once you bet.

2) He has a good hand, but is trying to put on a reverse tell to make you think #1 above.


The uncertainty this would put in my mind would make me lean much more toward the river call. I would definitely still call the turn. Again, knowledge of the player makes a big difference, as always.


Summary: In this case, Good read = good call


Treefrog

Yeah I don't know if I would make the play either, mostly because you have a tough hand to get away from.


aym

I forgot to count the river bet. Shame on me.