AK flies into the swirling vortex

[chesspain]

Party 2/4...early on in a nice loose game; no reads yet on opponents in question.

I'm in MP and dealt A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Folded to me and I raise, folded to the CO who coldcalls, Button coldcalls, SB calls, BB three-bets, we all call...five to the flop (15SB).


2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif

SB checks, BB bets, I raise, CO folds, Button coldcalls, SB folds, BB three-bets, I call, Button calls...three to the turn (12BB).


[2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif] K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

BB bets, I raise, Button coldcalls, BB three-bets (Should I have taken this as my cue to fold?), I call, Button calls...three to the river (21BB).


[2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif] 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

BB bets, I call, Button calls...final pot: 24BB


Should I have bailed on the turn? If not, is there any way I'm not seeing the showdown for that final bet?

Results below in white:

<font color="white">BB showed As Ah for the best two-pair
Button coldcalled the entire way with 9s 9d </font>

[spamuell]

Why did you raise the flop?

Why did you raise the turn after being 3-bet pre-flop and on the flop?

[chesspain]

On the flop, I wanted to see how well the BB and the others liked their hands. In addition, I wanted to increase my chances of winning this hand by trying to fold out anyone who could beat me with a miracle card if I did catch an A or K for the possible TP/TK.

When the flop came back 3-bet by the BB, I couldn't yet put him on KK/AA, although I assumed that he had a premium pair (or AK), and I had planned to fold the turn if I didn't hit. Unfortunately, when the K hit on the turn, I felt obliged to raise, since calling would leave me in no-man's land.

After it came back to me 3-bet, there were now 19BB in the pot, with the Button likely to call to close the action. Since I now put the BB on KK, AA, or AK, I thought:

1) I'm chopping with AK, or
2) I'm drawing dead to KK, or
3) I'm getting 20:1 to draw to a two-outer if he has AA.

Given all of the above, I thought it was worth one BB to see the river, although maybe my belief that he could have been overplaying AK was too optimistic. In retrospect, since I realize now that I had a hand that wanted a showdown, I just should have called the turn, since if the BB had JJ/QQ he might have just folded rather than try to hit a two-outer.

Finally, once the river came, I could not see laying down for that final bet, especially since I believed that the Button was going to call to close the action with what likely would be the third best hand.

[tripdad]

the flop raise makes no sense. definitely raise the turn though, then call down. i don't see how you can get away when your king hits the turn.

cheers!

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop, I wanted to see how well the BB and the others liked their hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know that the BB must like his hand a fair amount, given that he 3-bet from the blinds. Most players need a monster to do this.

[ QUOTE ]
In addition, I wanted to increase my chances of winning this hand by trying to fold out anyone who could beat me with a miracle card if I did catch an A or K for the possible TP/TK.


[/ QUOTE ]

What type of hands are you talking about? Something like 98s can't beat you with a "miracle card" if you catch an A or K because they can only hit one pair. The only hands that can beat you with a miracle card when you do hit are hands that are currently way ahead of you (pocket pairs) if they hit a full house, and a pocket pair is going nowhere on this flop, regardless of how many bets you put in. The only other hands that you're likely to fold out which could beat you, should you hit an A or K, are backdoor straights/flushes. So, you're putting in an extra SB on the flop, in order to stop people winning the pot should you hit on the turn (which you'll do less than one time in seven), even though you're often not going to have the best hand when you hit on the turn because the BB will have AA. Furthermore, you're opening yourself up to the possiblity of a 3-bet from a better hand, which is expensive.

I think a call is much better than a raise on the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
When the flop came back 3-bet by the BB, I couldn't yet put him on KK/AA, although I assumed that he had a premium pair (or AK), and I had planned to fold the turn if I didn't hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

After he 3-bets pre-flop and on the flop, I'm not thinking AK anymore. But you still have to call because this doesn't necessarily mean AA/KK, as 99 (or possibly lower) to QQ would play this way as well.

[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately, when the K hit on the turn, I felt obliged to raise, since calling would leave me in no-man's land.


[/ QUOTE ]

What's wrong with being in no man's land (not literally of course, that would be pretty bad)? You don't know where you are, but you often don't until showdown.

[ QUOTE ]
retrospect, since I realize now that I had a hand that wanted a showdown, I just should have called the turn, since if the BB had JJ/QQ he might have just folded rather than try to hit a two-outer.


[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo. That and that you're getting 3-bet by a better hand a lot here, and for the reasons you mentioned, it's very hard to lay it down.

[ QUOTE ]
Finally, once the river came, I could not see laying down for that final bet

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, once you've reached the river, you need to show down.

[joker122]

I like how you raised the flop to to see if he did have a big pocket pair. It seems as if he did since he 3bet, and that's where I'd probably fold.