KJs: fold on the turn chk-raise?

[PAUL-IN]

10-20 holdem. i raise pre with KJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB and BB call.

flop is J 4 8 rainbow. both blinds check, and i bet, and thehy call.

turn: 3-makes a 4 heart flush possible. blinds check again, i bet, SB raises, BB calls. what's the play here?

the checkraiser has done this to me before and showed down a naked bluff, when a scare card comes on turn, but this time, i got suspicious that he had something good here, as the three didn't make a "pat hand"...

Another hand. 10-20 omaha 8/b
A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif on button not beautiful, but almost a button raising hand, IMO. not sure how many people limped, but it's about 6 players seeing a flop of

T /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif6 /images/graemlins/club.gif. SB, who's been ramping and scooping, but is a poor lucky player, bets, two callers, and i raise. all call.

Turn: good looking 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

SB bets out again. all call, i just call.

river: 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. good. SB bets out again, one caller, who is a rock, and i raise, as i have a six which makes quads impossible and the only hand that can beat me is jacks. SB deliberates, and finally reraises, rock flashes his hand to 1/2 the table, and mucks, and i call. impossibly bad raise on the river right? please flame.

[nykenny]

not sure about the river, but, raise turn!

[shemp]

#1. You can't fold. The only hands that you are correct to fold against are a set, AJ, or top two. Your opponent bluff raises and semi-bluff raises, and that board is draw rich. The question is whether or not to 3-bet -- I say, call, check-raise semi-bluffs are a bit rarer, a 4-bet won't be fun, and if he's behind he may have a huge draw and be committed to betting hit or miss. Is he ever going to show you a set, yeah, of course. 5h6h? Other hearts? T9? QJ? Yeah. Yeah. Besides, he could "put you on AK" and think any pair was good.

#2. Just because you rarely win when it is 3-bet doesn't mean that a raise is wrong. You are good there and get paid enough to offset the 3-bet, and an idiot will 3-bet a worse boat every once in awhile. When you get 3-bet and feel like an idiot, well, that shouldn't leave as lasting of an impression as it does.

[elysium]

hi paul
hand 1) well, if your image is solid and if anything a little on the calling type side, then folding is ok 1 in 3 or 4 times when these conditions exist. if, however, you are not perceived as being call heavy, then you should call.

of couse, the over-caller changes things slightly, but since your call closes things, unless he's a rock type, call. i'm sure there are players who hand reading skills are so reliable that they know they are beat and won't have shots taken at them if they fold, but it's not easy guesswork. calling is almost always correct. you have a 5 outer. 1 out of 10 times, you'll have the lead. the odds to call are there. the draw developing on the turn also favors a call.

[El Dukie]

Regarding the O/8 hand, since you're on the button and holding a 6, raise the turn with your boat. Since you've got a bunch of people who already called one bet, they'll call two. You correctly point out there's only one hand that can beat you. On the slim chance SB re-raises, you can call him down.