When do you admit you're defeated with AA?

[Garland]

Location: Lucky Chances
Stakes: $9/$18
Players: Pretty loose and not overly aggressive. A good game overall.

I'm to the right of a very loose and very lucky player. I saw him bluff with a draw once when he raised, so I was very leery of him. Anyhow, in LP I pick up AA and I believe my very loose maniac opponent was going to raise. I beat him to it and he calls and everyone else folds out of our way. The way he calls and puts in his chips told me he didn't have a pocket pair. Anyhow, the flop comes J109 rainbow, which I hate because it's coordinated increasing the odds he has 2 pair or a straight draw at least. I bet, he raises, I reraise, and he 4 bet me. To make a long story short, I was determined to call him down with blanks on the turn and river and was shown J10. It would have been easier if there were 3 or 4 people in the pot, because he'd be less inclined to bluff with fewer people. But I still had the sense I lost, but I "knew" I had outs in AA or board pairing. But maybe I was drawing practically dead with him having KQ.

If I'm determined to call the turn, should I call the river as well? How would others play it as I described the situation? I hated my position BTW.

All comments appreciated.

Garland

[anatta]

Preflop, if you thought he was going to raise, why not limp and then re-raise?

You found out that the crummy JT9 flop hit him, and you call him down, hoping that he has either top pair or that you can improve. Looks good to me.

Obviously, its a whole lot easier to admit defeat with AA in a multiway pot, rather then headsup vs. a LAG. I suppose I could construct a situation where I would do it, but correctly folding AA vs. one loose dude has got to be extremely rare.

[Jeffage]

I don't think you can get away from this headsup against this player with this board (or most players for that matter). You said he raised with a draw before...he could easily have a hand like QJs for top pair and the draw on the flop. I'd look him up and I wouldn't think twice about it.

Jeff

[elysium]

hi gar
you played it well. you could have called the 3 bet and check-raised the turn as well as how you did play it, and wouldn't suffer loss of ev. this type hand is just run of the mill grind gar. the posts are important though because i can see what's going on in your game, which is solid tight. now you have some weak spots that are nibbling you away a little. you will need to run a stone cold bluff when it's likely to have you betting and your opponent calling. you will need to develop some instinct as well. you're coming in with too much polish. you want to irritate and make go ugh. you don't like dazzling in these spots. when you near the later positions, you need to inspire action before the cards are dealt. ' i feel hot cards coming people. hot! she's got em smoking. here they come , go. go. go !' when you're in the EP, you might give a little, 'mule team, hiya!', and that gives your EP starters a better chance if you get them. you also need to develop your, 'i'm going to raise!'. you need to proclamate here a little or declare that you intend to raise. 'i'm going to...(and then)....raise!'. and hold your jaw out a little. get the jaw part of the proclammation going, and condition your opponents to watch for jetting jaw. and then, when necessary to quell aggression, you can then go into a pre-exclamatory posture, with jetting jaw to quell aggression. your opponents now think that you will raise. but you need to time all this. and your opponents need to be responding favorably. so that you can make 'getting ready to' postures or preperational....oh, i can't think of a good word, but you need to look like you're getting ready to raise, which is why you need to dramatize the raises you do make a little. you get that prepatory. and now when your hand can't stand heavy action, but you'd like to call, but you also see that your opponent on your right is getting ready to do a little raising himself, you jet that jaw out there, and take a deep prepatory breath, and get ready like that. now he will only call, and then you call. so, as you see, to stop a raise takes a lot of, well, hard work. you have to really work hard like that. that's work. because afterwards you're tired. stopping raises is very tire inducing.

so, you need to work the table by motioning. when you hit the 24 or 30 hour mark, you're physical appearence will get the calls because you will really appear to be very tired. so then, you just tighten down like a rock, and allow your natural appearance to garner those extra calls. you should be able to work a full table though for i'm going to say a good 12 hrs. and then you start to not be alert and responsive. it's work gar. you need to do that though.

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Oh man....this is sooooo familiar to the Babe. Vs. a maniac heads up, I pay it off. I hate to say it, but I check /call the turn and river like a sheep. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

I find that even good players cannot lay down AA in the face of competing evidence that they are likely beat.
I think that AA is most frequently laid down on the river, after a bet and a raise by other players with a highly coordinated board. I think AA is rarely laid down vs. one opponent.


Just today, in the 20-40 game I had 10,J on an 8,9, 4, 10 board vs. a pretty tight older player. There were 2 players and the older guy behind me. I bet the turn. BOTH guys folded but the older player (and the initial raiser) called. He thought about folding. He hesitated. He TRIED to fold...., but could not do it. /images/graemlins/confused.gif I am really needing some help here, cuz I cannot beat an overpair. The river brings no help. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

YUP...he called me with AA....Imagine that? /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

LGPG

Babe /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[shemp]

If you are headsup and can accurately put someone on AA/KK -- then you can accurately put them on a call. 13 turn outs is not worth a bet unless the guy can fold, you're a dog and need to make the best hand.

I'd say, don't worry about laying AA down headsup in limit holdem -- just be conscious that if you take such a stand, you need to be a bit more passive at times, because you can't fold, the upside is the putz with JT may get confused and keep betting for you when you are good.

[Jeff V]

"stopping raises is very tire inducing."
Your not kidding.