how to play at a tight table?

[rjc199]

Hi,

How do you change your playing style when the table switches to tight-passive? (by this I mean 2 or 3 people seeing the flop, some hands being taken without a showdown).

Ordinarily I avoid these types of tables because they don't suit my style (beginner), but alot of times a table will go on anti-tilt and turn tight-passive.

I imagine that you should be a little more loose and semi-bluff more. Bet 2nd pair and 3rd pair. But what sorts of hands should you add to your usual repetoir and how should you play them?

[illunious]

Raise preflop with good position much more, limp much less.

Switch tables after the orbit ends. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[StellarWind]

When the table is tight you should raise more when you have a chance to steal the blinds.

[ QUOTE ]
But what sorts of hands should you add to your usual repetoir and how should you play them?

[/ QUOTE ]
You need to play *less* hands. Focus on big pairs and high cards. Being suited or connected is less useful. Small pairs are less valuable.

If people also play tighter after the flop, bluff and semibluff more.

That's how you should play if you play. It's a leak to play tight microlimit tables. Nothing you can do will compensate you for the loss of the fat profits from the abundant very loose tables.

It is very hard to beat a tight table at microlimits at all because the high rake eats your profits.

[rjc199]

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You need to play *less* hands. Focus on big pairs and high cards. Being suited or connected is less useful. Small pairs are less valuable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand how this strategy can be profitable. If you wait for those hands you end up wasting all your money folding preflop. And when you actually do get a hand people are going to fold to you when you raise.

[ QUOTE ]
It is very hard to beat a tight table at microlimits at all because the high rake eats your profits.

[/ QUOTE ]

At Party $0.50/1.00 they only rake when the pot gets above $5. And if the tables are tight-passive not many of these sorts of pots get raked.

[MrDannimal]

If many of the pots at this type of table don't get raked, then how are you losing all your money folding pre-flop? You're losing only $.50 an orbit if you fold every SB.

Honestly, the best idea is to move to a better table. There are plenty of loose-passive tables at Party.

I don't know if I'd adjust my starting hands all that much. I would dump the small pairs and lower suited connecters in early/early-mid position. But mostly, I'd be sure to open raise instead of limping as much as possible, especially as I get closer to the button.

[rjc199]

I can't accept the advice "run away" when the tables turns tight-passive.

Eventually one will have to learn to play at tight tables, and it is better to learn to play at low limit tables.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't accept the advice "run away" when the tables turns tight-passive.

Eventually one will have to learn to play at tight tables, and it is better to learn to play at low limit tables.

[/ QUOTE ]
You can pay for experience if you want. But you are paying. The profits are much better at the numerous loose tables. Your reduced profits are either money spent on tuition or a leak, depending on your viewpoint.

Tight games can be beaten but the profits are limited. Tight bad players don't make as many mistakes as loose bad players. You have to win many more pots to make a profit at a tight table and the rake really hurts.

20/40 Table: Big Blind = $20, max rake = $3
0.5/1 Table: Big Blind = $0.50, max rake = $1

You do the math. A winning player will pay several more BB per hour in rake at a tight 0.5/1 table compared to an otherwise identical 20/40 table. How is a winning 20/40 player (2 BB/hr) supposed to win if he plays the same opponents at 0.5/1 and no one changes the way they play?

Responding to another point, you have to tighten up your starting hands at a tight table. You can't be in the position of routinely playing worse hands than the fish unless you want to *be* the fish. Blind steals are an exception if you can get them.

[MrDannimal]

I'm not suggesting you run away, I'm suggesting you apply the skill of game selection, which is just as important as starting hand selection. If you have the choice of Table A with 30% seeing the flop and an average pot of 6BB or Table B with 45% seeing the flop and an average pot of 10 BB, are you being a "coward" by choosing Table B? OF course not.

I understand wanting to learn to be able to play at a tight passive table (which is why I offered my tight passive suggestions), but I don't think it's at all true that you'll "eventually have to play" a tight passive table.

Not only are there a massive # of tables online at the big sites, but if ALL the tables at your site have gone tight passive, you don't have to play. If you want to play $1/$2, and the only tables with seats are $2/$4, does that mean you have to play a $2/$4 game? If the only game at your level that had a seat had to players you knew were good, do you have to sit and play good opponents? There's been several times when I haven't been able to find a game that looked good to me (not often, but over 9 months it's happened). I either wait or do something else (read a 2+2 book, for example. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Good luck with learning to adjust, though (it's certainly not a bad plan), and keep bringing questions.

[ctv1116]

leave the table.

EDIT: honestly, you really don't need to subject yourself to a harder game when there are softer games a click away.

[phishfan]

I don't think you guys understand the situation. He's not talking about jumping into a really tight low limit table. He means a table that was once loose but has just tightened up. Now, if this is because the 2 or 3 loosest players just left then yeah you should get up and leave but that's not always the reason. Sometimes the table tightens up because there have been some wild pots recently and the players are still reeling from losing so much money with 86o. Now if someone is willing to put in a bunch of money while taking the worst of it i'm going to show him some patience and give him an orbit to see if he still feels like gambling.
And, if you want to talk about poker skill, what about game preservation. I used to hate that about party low limits. Table full of fish tightens up a for a couple of hand, two or three "pros" leave to find a table with an 80% see the flop percentage and all the fish leave because no one wants to play shorthanded.

[Brian462]

Here's my approach to overly tight tables. I am by far no expert but I think I do okay.

I think the biggest difference of these games is that you really have to mind position. You can obviously no longer limp in from early position with suited connectors and small pocket pairs.

You need to open for raises pretty much every time if you have a chance at stealing the blinds or drastically improving your position. As you get closer to the button you can loosen up a bit and try stealing more but keep emphasis on big cards and hands that can win with little to no improvement(AX and even KX). Don't go overboard with this idea.

If they are passive post flop then that makes the game really easy. Take advantage of them like you would any passive player by raising for free cards often, betting your hands for value if they are loose, and semibluffing more if they are tight.

I wouldn't get aggressive with middle and 3rd pair right away. The only type of player passives can do remotely well against are the ones that bet their hands for them. If you think your middle pair is best then bet but routinely betting these into stronger holdings will cost you alot of money.

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]

I imagine that you should be a little more loose and semi-bluff more. Bet 2nd pair and 3rd pair. But what sorts of hands should you add to your usual repetoir and how should you play them?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, no, no, no, no. Don't loosen up. Tighten up. Way up.

I've been playing in incredibly tight games recently. In two recent sessions the percentage seeing the flop actually dipped below 20 percent for a while (in one game for a long while...).

Play your big cards. Period. Only play suited connectors, small pairs, A-x suited etc if you have requisite number of limpers. In a loose game you can sometimes come in without enough limpers because most of the time more will come after you. Not so in a very tight game.

Be ruthless about throwing away anything that's not a premium hand. I know if you haven't played anything in three orbits and you get A-4 suited you want to jump in with it, but you can't....you simply can't and make money.

Playing this way means you play many fewer monsters since you rarely get in a position to flop sets and flushes but that's simply the way it is.

Also, it feels like the blinds eat you up. You just have to be patient. Since you play so few hands, you actually go down very little, the hands that you do pick should put you over the top.

These are games where appropriate bluffs might win a lot of pots. However, I've found that I have a lot of trouble figuring out when a bluff will work with my A-Qoff that missed the flop and turn and when that guy with the K-3off who hit his three is going to call down to the river so I avoid it. Because you win so few hands and the pots tend to be smaller, its hard to make up for missed bluffs.

Its discouraging sometimes if the cards are particularly bad. I had two sessions where I saw only eight percent of the flops outside the blinds. Do not, do not, do not start playing less than premium hands because of it. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. That's my best advice. When the game is like that I have to do something else, read these forums, read a magazine, whatever or I start to loosen up and unless I get lucky, I bleed away chips...chips that are hard to make up in a very tight passive game.

Its also not true that the pots are never big. Although its discouraging when, like the other day, I raised with AA in Ep and it was folded all the way around so I only picked up the blinds...the next time I had AA I picked up a 14 BB pot.

So. Be patient and be absolutely ruthless about throwing away non-premium hands and hands that miss the flop. Steal pots only if you are very confident of your ability to pick the right spots.

And don't go nuts with the blind stealing either.

--Zetack

[rjc199]

ok,

This is the kind of answer I was looking for. Somebody with experience and rational explaination why to play this way.

Thanks!

[jeffseib]

This is very interesting, but my experience is exactly the opposite.

Lately, I have actually been looking for tight/passive games and have found them to be very profitable.

The way I have been playing them is this:
Play very tight for a couple of orbits, until I have identified the weak players (those that will fold under pressure), and have an idea of the kinds of hands that they play. Then I add mid and low suited connectors to my late position play, especially if these weak players are in the hand. On the flop, if high cards appear, I check and fold the hand unless there is a straight or flush draw. If low cards appear and I get a pair (any pair), straight draw (OESD or GBST) or flush draw, I bet. If it is called around (in a tight game usually all but one drops on the flop) and rags appear on the turn, I bet again. Those tight/weak players with AK at this point will almost always fold and I will pick up the pot. If they have a high pair and low cards flop, these weak players with almost always raise my bet; at this point I drop to save money. This is the general idea: steal the pot when you think that the flop missed the tight/weak players.

The important thing is that I play my opponents, not just the hand.

I may have just been lucky recently and will have to reevaluate my strategy in the future, but lately it has worked pretty well.

[rjc199]

You know, I basically had a similar idea in how to play preflop.

I know that these people are waiting for group 3 hands to play. I was thinking of playing things like A7, A8, 78s so when the flop is trash (T, 2, 7)and I get a piece of it I know I am ahead and can bet.

[jeffseib]

Yes, that is how I have been playing these tables.

It is important that you know your opponent. At these tables there is always a tight/passive that will call to the end. You want to avoid a showdown with this kind without at least a reasonable hand.

Also, table image is very important. If you can win a few pots in the early rounds, they will start to fear you, especially it you play them very aggressively. Fear is your friend in this kind of game. When you think that the flop missed them, don't be afraid to ram and jam. Sometimes, even if it missed you /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
You know, I basically had a similar idea in how to play preflop.

I know that these people are waiting for group 3 hands to play. I was thinking of playing things like A7, A8, 78s so when the flop is trash (T, 2, 7)and I get a piece of it I know I am ahead and can bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying this won't work. I've been in some very tight passive games where plenty of pots may have been available to the player willing to bet at them. But you do, even in those games get the players calling down with a pair of threes. You get the guy with 88 who won't release them for anything...like I said before, you can get paid off on your good hands and thats part of the reason why.

Here's my analysis of the problems with playing things like A-7 in very tight passive games. First how do you play it, do you limp in everytime? Are you playing it early or only late? If you limp in, you can no longer be sure a pair of sevens is the best hand on a low card board. If you come in early and there's a raise behind you are you throwing the hand away now or seeing a flop? Either way you may be wasting chips. If you see a flop for a raise and pair your ace what do you do? Do you like that hand? Do you bleed chips to the river hoping your oponent didn't raise with A-K? If you pair your sevens on a low flop board are you comfortable that the raiser didn't have QQ?

I think--somebody may correct me on this--that you pair one of your cards on the flop about a third of the time. So a large portion of the time you come in with A-7 you are just tossing your money away unless you are prepared to start bluffing at the pot.

Then, say you hit your Aces...well your kicker sucks. If somebody bets in front in a small unraised pot, what do you do? Call to the river? Re-raise? In my tight passive games there are players who play any ace, but there are also players who limp in with A-Q. If you are first in do you bet? What if you are reraised? What if you are called and then raised on the turn?

In your A-7 example you pair your sevens on an 10-7-2 board. Well now you're vulnerable to so many things its ridiculous. Many hands that have you beat won't ever tell you so by raising, or even betting costing you chips all the way to the river. Overcards will stay in at least to the turn and maybe the river and can easily catch up with you. You've got the guy playing 10-5 out of the BB. You've got the A-10 limper. You've got the 99 limper who decides if no more overcards come he's riding it all the way...

It boils down to this, you piss off that many more chips when you miss by virtue of seeing more flops. You don't like your hand as much when you hit. And you're much more vulnerable to losing on 4th and 5th streets. At least with A-K an opponent has to have two pair or better to beat you when you hit.

Because pots tend to be smaller, and because you don't have the implied odds to play as many hands and so you win fewer pots bleeding off chips really hurts. I'm not saying this strategy wouldn't work, particularly if you are good at playing the other players, and pay a lot of attention to position, and are good at buying pots, but there's a lot of downside to it too.

Just my 2 cents...

--Zetack