I go nuts and play bad

[Diplomat]

4-handed 30-60 online. I'm relatively new to the table, so I don't really know the players.

I am in the big blind with 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Folded to the small blind who raises. I call.

The flop is 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif. He bets, I raise, he three-bets, I call.

The turn is the 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. He bets, I raise, he three-bets, I call.

The river is the J /images/graemlins/club.gif. He bets and I fold.

Ick. Comments?

-Diplomat

[mike l.]

4 handed id be tempted to play it a little more slowly on the flop and/or turn and be more focused on getting to a showdown w/ a pair of 7s.

[Ulysses]

Upon further reflection and reading mike's response, call the turn, call the river.

[Gabe]

"The flop is 8 7 4 . He bets, I raise, he three-bets, I call.

The turn is the 6 . He bets, I raise, he three-bets,"

I gave up doing this kind of stuff for Lent.

[ender]

I don't think these sorts of image plays have as much value on line. It's fun to go crazy though.

I call the river (no matter what came) after that much money wnet in. I think I make a large portion of my money on the river by not folding. I would like to hear thoughts on this. Enlighten me.

[TimTimSalabim]

I don't see much point in raising the turn. As a semi-bluff, it doesn't have much value, he's not likely to fold after 3-betting the flop. Call the turn, then call the river (or raise if you hit one of your big draws, of course) just to look him up for future reference on how he plays his hands.

[Diplomat]

This is where my thinking has been fundamentally whacked out over the last few weeks. Instead of "I better go slow in case he's got a bigger pair, and I might improve" I've been thinking "fuggit, I'm going to blow him off a set of 4's here."

Not suprizingly, I've been called down more, and lose more often when I go to war.

-Diplomat

[Diplomat]

I gave up after-dinner sweets. Clearly that was a -EV decision.

-Diplomat

[elysium]

hi diplomat
no problem, we're going to start all over. i'm going to keep giving you this same advice, and true to form you're going to dismiss it. but we will continue going through the motions

diplomat, you must tighten up on your starters. you can't be calling this SB with what you called him with here. not this guy diplomat. he's not playing loose late position. no he's not. this guy knows you're calling. he's got AA and nothing else. he bets....you better believe it. these people are not bullchiping you diplomat. they are really going to take your money, really. you need to make emergengy preparations for countering this threat because nothing is going to pull you out of the card room long enough to do anything with your game. you have a zillion dollars. you won't do anything until you only have a thousand left. and then it's too late. now just forget about what you learned. you didn't learn it right. it's useless to you. you're going to lose.

it would be much better if you only played one hand a week but did so under the right conditions than for you to continue on like you are. one hand a week. and if the conditions aren't right, no hands a week. in a month from now, if you go 4 weeks without playing a hand, the card room should still be there.

there's only one way that you can play this game diplomat. you need to read and digest both 7 card stud and omaha, because i'm going to recommend that you base whether or not you enter into a game strictly on game conditions only. and good position meaning that i want you on the right of the aggressive and calling stations in the blinds. later on, after you adjust to winning, you can get on the left of the aggressive, and go for weak tight blinds. every game you enter into from now on, will be loose and weak/ bad. that's all that you can handle right now. you're going to have a hard time finding the perfect game, but if you broaden your range of games, you should keep reasonably busy, albeit not anything nearly as exciting as what you're doing now. in these loose weak games that you find, whether 7 card or omaha or hold em, you will play as tight as a bullfrog's [censored]. Axs only on the absolute button tight. yes, too tight for positive ev. why? because you got stopped. you're like a fighter who just got knocked out. so, to get you back on your feet, we need to go over to the amateur gym and see if the coach will allow us to give free lesson to some of the aspiring golden glove talent, one of whom you will recover your masculinity with by aggressively sparring. you won't make money but you will win.

that's it dip. you cannot take on the opponents you're taking on now. when the game's tough, you won't be in it. once you've become more disciplined, and are able to muck Axs first in from the CO, and any pair less than 99 from MP- to UTG, and you learn to handle the boredom and pots that you could have won if you weren't listening to this advice, once you gain control over your impulses, then you can begin to learn all over again.

we will begin with broadening the number of loose games available for you to enter into by adding 7 card stud and omaha to your repetoir.. get those two books. you'll need to read, and reread and underline. get on the left of the aggressive with calling stations in the blinds for now.

diplomat, of course you won't do any of this, but you might tighten a little on the starters. but you should be abstaining from all but non-loose weak/ bad type games. even passive/ average games are not for you at this time. it will be years before you're ready to take on the type opponents you're taking on now. at least two years.

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Hi Diplomat.

The most important part of your post is the title. If you know you are blowing off chips and overplaying your hands, you can STOP doing this stuff right now. Remember that you are playing LIMIT poker, and the best hand usually wins.

It's great that you can monitor yourself and realize you are making errors. Only the best players can do so.

LGPG,

Babe /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[wateronrock]

Nice post PokerBabe.
There can be such a fine line between brilliant and goofy play. It's every players responsabillity to monitor/critique there own play, or you can go broke.
Sleeping after an 8 hour session of playing my c game ain't fun.
As for the hand in question... 30-60 4 handed? Tough game.You're gonna be flirting with that fine line frequently

[ACPlayer]

Great sermon.

No more lies, no cheating on the spouse, no alcohol and no gambling. The only way to get to nirvana.

I love it!

[Diplomat]

[ QUOTE ]
hi diplomat
no problem, we're going to start all over. i'm going to keep giving you this same advice, and true to form you're going to dismiss it. but we will continue going through the motions


[/ QUOTE ]

Ok.

-Diplomat

[Diplomat]

Ok Ok. I was just kidding in my last post.

He actually did not have AA if you can believe it -- he flashed A /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gif after I folded the river, confirming that I play bad. I played this hand bad because I decided to bail, despite my read that he was on a draw the whole way.

I also screwed it up because there really are only two outcomes that my line results in: 1. I take it down on the turn, or 2. We go to war and I pay off/need to suck out. Calling him down after the flop three-bet is a much better idea. I can raise the river if I get there.

The rest of your response is interesting, and does have some value; often when my HE game is a bit off I'll go play Omaha or 7Stud for a bit as a break. (I've been playing lots of Omaha the last week, heh)

In general though, are you not being a bit presumptuous?

-Diplomat

[elysium]

hi diplomat
presumptuous? well,....no, of course not. i've had a lot of experience with your style of play here on the posting board. i know that as seriously as you take this game, you are still not grasping, respecting its very complex areas. you don't have the time to diplomat. people are on your case left and right. you have a little time to play, but you still consider it as something more than recreation. you want to win consistantly.

i'm going to first do a make over of you. stop wearing that designer crap. that's not good for you. instead, come to the card room wearing sweat type sports gear, loose around the arms. loose. and don't wear bright and lively, wear darker type colors like dark grey or darker type off-white. grey is good. if you have a lot of chip that you take with you to the card room, just take along a walmart type jacket. nothing even as fancy as some of the nicer sports wear type jackets you get at penney's. you'll need shades too.

now i'm telling you how to dress, because i'm going to tell you how to hold your posture at the table. put both arms over the table perimeter rail cushion part, and just hunch like that, slouch like. only turn off all emotions. and just sit there. you know that you're hunching over the table in slouch position just right if there's a lot of wrinkles in your sweat type shirt sleeves. and don't look at anything other than the area on the table mid-way between the pot and your chips. once you perfect your poker slouch, you are on your way to consistantly being a winner. you just play better when you're hunched over and slouchy, but have on sweat type sports wear. don't ask me why.

i've never played a hand against tommy yet, but i guarantee you diplomat, he's got the slouch. these are the highly dangerous players. also, if you've listened to tommy, which you don't; i doubt if you even listen to me; but if you were listening, you'd realize tommy does something else. tommy tells you how to beat this game right in your face, and laughs with a big laugh that you don't even perceive the significance of what he is saying. tommy says he looks at his hand when the action gets to him 75% of the time. tommy says exactly 75%.

remember the television series kung fu? remember how grasshopper's acceptance into the world of the great buddhist martial arts masters was predicated upon his being able to snatch the rice paper from his blind instuctor's hand? when you can answer why tommy says specifically 75% of the time in reference to the frequency that he looks at his cards for the first time pre-flop right at the moment the action gets to him the other 25% of the time, he looks at his cards before the action gets to him.

you don't know the answer to this question of why he does that. it's the furthest thing from your mind. it ties in with the slouch diplomat. what are we talking about? we're talking about how to sit at the table diplomat, and look at your cards. you can't even do that. that's how much knowledge you have on this game. will you ever be able to sit at the table and look, simply look at your cards without supervision and constant reminders? i don't know. only you know the answer to that. what i'm telling you to do is get into that card room and slouch, so that you look like you know. no, you're a long, long way away from being able to look at your cards correctly, much less make an intelligent decision as to what to do next. i want to pit you up against the world's worst players, and see how you stack up against them. if the only loose weak games you can find are 3-6 or 1-2, that's fine. all i'm looking to do is get a win any way we can here to remove some of the shell shock. you will win because when they enter in, you will muck. muck everything you can for the slightest reason you can possibly find. if you have AJs and an EP limps in, muck. do it. prove that you're intelligent enough to realize that you need to be stronger than that at this stage of your hold em enlightenment; that only powerful cards more powerful than AJs will pull you through while you're learning. you will also build up your endurance of being able to muck possible winners after having mucked a couple winners, while absolutely bored beyond what you currently believe that you can stand. so you'll be increasing your ability to sustain the dull boredom that your opponents will fall to. when you finally are dealt AA or KK, try with everything you've got to say, 'i (like eye yaigh yiagh yaigh yaigh! eye!).... (you've got that?).....i bet!' bam! bam the bet in. say, 'i bet!'. and you bam. there's the bet. and you look at your opponents as if to say, 'you'll be hard pressed to call this.'. bam 'i bet!' bam. like that diplomat. you bam.

don't check or check-raise or get fancy. if you have the goods you bam, if not you fold. the loosest bad games you can find if you have to go down to 1-2 to find one. post it here with the results. you can pretend it is a 10-20 or 20 -40. yeah, i hear you. no. you won't find the loose bad game even at 5-10. i just want to see if you can slouch and make a fair effort toward getting your bet into the pot properly. that's all. you will not make money. remember the sweat shirt. you want loose sleeves. remember to slouch, hunched over your chips with dead pan blank stare. when you are finally dealt the goods, become powerful, bam. you bet.

[Diplomat]

I'm working on the slouch, but my doctor keeps telling me that the X-rays reveal that the slouch is -EV.

Generally though E, my pre-flop is fine. When I play bad, my post-flop goes to...well you know where.

-Diplomat

[elysium]

hi diplomat
my threads work against your will, fortunately. i know you get in there against slouchers, you just didn't know it. remember, game selection. remember also, you've never mucked AJs pre-flop in your life; an incredible statistic. and you called that SB....gee. you need to beat up on some weaker opponents. actually i'd like to see you take about 6 months off to study. anyway, you should lose less now. these threads are gonna be nagging at you diplomat. they're designed to work against your will.

[mikelow]

I would have folded preflop. I just don't see how 97, suited or not plays well shorthanded.

[cero_z]

Hi mike,
I play tighter than most in shorthanded online games, but I would NEVER fold 97s for one more bet vs. only the SB. Folks in these games raise with practically anything in that spot, and 97s with position can easily get value against any hand that doesn't dominate it. Against hands that do, it's not exactly a trap hand.
Diplomat, I must second those who said call the turn, call the river. But after all that turn action, you must call the river. This is online poker; you must call. Did I mention that you must call?

[Coilean]

Err, come on. Suited mid one gapper, with position and 3:1 pot odds? If he raises only his best 25% of hands here (which is less than a typical opponent raises here IME), the pairs 77-AA comprise under 12% of his hands. Your life isn't on the line here, just $30 /images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

As for the rest of the hand.. well, if chances are pretty decent that opponent is on a stone cold bluff, I would just call it down after the flop 3-bet. If he probably has a hand or a real draw, I would put in another raise on the flop where you still are even money or better against many hands that are beating you. Given the results for the hand, the aggression level on this table seems high enough that it might be better to avoid fancy turn raises with marginal pairs that could win a showdown.

[elysium]

[WyattErb]

with what do you raise the flop? middle pair? u can try to semi-bluff there, but when he 3bets you, fold! you dont have a hand! i would even fold that hand preflop when there is a raise, despite being in the bb!

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
with what do you raise the flop? middle pair? u can try to semi-bluff there, but when he 3bets you, fold! you dont have a hand! i would even fold that hand preflop when there is a raise, despite being in the bb!

[/ QUOTE ]

Were you one of the programmers who worked on winholdem?

[Diplomat]

In a full game maybe, but 4-handed I think this is too weak/tight.

-Diplomat

[Coilean]

Bleah, for some reason I thought Diplomat flopped a flush draw with his pair and picked up the straight draw on the turn, not that he picked up both draws on the turn. Add me to the mike l. "call it down from the flop" camp.

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
with what do you raise the flop? middle pair? u can try to semi-bluff there

[/ QUOTE ]

Middlepair is a VERY strong hand headsup, specially when you got raised by small blind. 2nd pair with a backdoorflush+backdoorstraight is even stronger.

Only reason to call 2nd pair on flop is because you want to trap him with a raise on turn instead.

If you raise flop and he 3bets there is 9SB in pot. You got 5/47 to hit 2 pair or trips + straight and flush draws. You MUST at least call his 3 bet. There are players 3betting AK in this spot (because people are often raising in BB with draws and overcards, remember, you only hit a pair on flop 1/3).

On turn you got 19 outs to hit 2 pair or better (did I count right?), that is almost 40% chance you are hitting a headsup monster.

There is 4 to a straight on board, unless he is very aggressive there isnt a lot of hands he is 3betting turn with if you raise, you were calling in BB so a 5 in your hand isnt impossible. If you raise turn he normally calls and check river, and when you check behind on river - those 60% when you dont hit - you have invested the same 2BB as you would have invested calling him down anyway.

Raising turn is good, there is small chance you are ahead, some chance he will fold a better hand then yours, and a big chance you will improve.

If he 3bets turn and you call and he bets out on river, there is now 12BB in pot. Its worth a call against an unknown player, you only need to win tiny 1/13. You are an unknown player to him and you raise flop and when he 3bets you call. That could very well mean you are on a draw. On turn you raise again when there is 4 to a straight and now he 3bets again. I would immediately think: "Is he a maniac or did he really hit that straight himself?" My doubt would be big enough to make it worth a call on river.

Calling turn is also an option, going for a raise if you hit river or else only call river.

By the way: Not calling a small blind raise with 97s is a pretty big misstake. You are investing 25% of pot and even against AA you are winning 21% (if you both always go to showdown). Against AKo you are winning 40%. AND YOU GOT POSITION TO USE.