I enjoy calling with JJ

[Rico Suave]

I am new to the table and I have no notes on my opponent.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.stompandcrush.com/cgi-bin/hhparser.cgi)

Preflop: Rico is MP2 with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="CC3333">UTG raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, <font color="CC3333">Rico 3-bets</font>, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, <font color="CC3333">UTG caps</font>, Rico calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Rico calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Rico calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Rico calls.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 9.75 BB, between UTG and Rico.</font>

Help please /images/graemlins/confused.gif

--Rico

[ZAC]

This is a tough one. First, I am not inclined to 3 bet with JJ if there is a EP, especially UTG raiser unless I have a good read of him. The fact that you did and get capped in return, just calling flop does not tell you where you stand. I would have raised the flop and respond accordingly. If he re-raises, I'm out of there.

[AviD]

Very tough hand with no read on the opponent. The QQ flop doesnt help either as an oppoennt with play any pocket pair aggressively.

The things to consider is he is a UTG raiser and capped your 3-bet PF. With that said, I'd raise his flop bet and see how he reacts. If he comes right back at you with a raise, you could be behind to AA/KK...or just as easily an overplayed TT/AKs/AKo.

With no read, and although I'd hate to do it...I'd probably fold right there. If you feel that is too weak-tight, call his 3-bet and fold to a bet on the turn if you go unimproved.

[ElSapo]

Hey Rico,

I think you played this fine. This is a situation where you will either lose the least or win close to the most by calling. If he has a big ace, you want him to keep bluffing. If he has AA/KK/QQ/AQ then you lose little here.

Calling seems wrong, feels wrong, but I think this is a situation, heads up, agains a EP capper, where it's effective.

That said, I don't like the advice from the other posters. Three-betting JJ is pretty much automatic, and w/o a really specific read on the EP raiser I'm not simply folding here. You'll definitely be behind sometimes, but peole will also keep firing with AKs and maybe TT, so I think calling it down is fine. Especially on the double paired board, he may believe ace-kicker wins at least half.

If he checks the river, please bet.

El Sapo

[asymmetrical]

In your spot, I think I'd raise the flop to see where I was at. If I got 3-bet I'd probably lay it down with no read on my opponent. If I knew he was one to overplay overcards or any pocket pair, then that's a different story.

Good scenario for you here: you 3-bet the flop, he calls and gives you a free card on the turn.

[sfer]

I like this post a lot. Raising the flop accomplishes nothing. If he's capping AK preflop, nothing is stopping him from 3-betting the flop.

If you want to show down, it was played right.

[Homer]

Raise the turn as your last bets in the pot. Hopefully AA, KK and AK will fold (yes, you want AK to lay down here). If you're three-bet, you can be sure you're behind, and have an easy fold.

-- Homer

[Homer]

If you want to show down, it was played right.

What does showing down accomplish here?

Raising the turn is a much better use of two bets than is calling single bets on the turn and river.

-- Homer

[ropey]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising the turn is a much better use of two bets than is calling single bets on the turn and river.

[/ QUOTE ]
Every time I read something like this I just scratch my head. I believe "raising and folding to a 3-bet" on the turn is generally very bad advice.

-ropey

[colgin]

Homer,

If there were a chance of occassionally getting AA or KK to fold I think this makes sense, since those hands, even if they call, are now very likely to just check the river. However, since I think the percentage of times that your typical Party $2/4 player would lay down AA or KK to a turn raise here is pretty much close to 0%, I like just calling down as Hero did rather than being in a position of having to fold to a three-bet.

Colgin

[sfer]

You lose the same if you're behind. If you're ahead and he would fold to your turn raise, you can win an extra bet on the river.

[MaxPower]

What's the big deal about folding to a 3-bet? In general, it is a bad idea, but with this board its a rare opponent who will 3-bet you with a hand that you can beat. If you are 3-bet you only have two outs and have to fold.

Its nice to show down your hand, but it shouldn't be your main goal.

Raising the turn, you will win the pot more often and prevent your opponent from bluffing you out when a scare card comes.

Sometimes people seem to be more concerned with showing down the hand than with making the most profitable play.

[MaxPower]

I'm more concerned with winning the 7 bets that are now in the pot than winning one more bet on the river.

There is no guarantee that your opponent will bet the river anyway.

[Mike Gallo]

Homer,

Since we know nothing of the opposition, I agree with your line of play.

Calling down wont do anything to win the hand. Raising might.

[sfer]

Let's say he calls the raise. Check through the river? What if he calls and bets the river?

EDIT: Sorry. Brain-fart while multi-tasking at work. Disregard.

[MaxPower]

If he calls the raise:

He checks, I check
He bets, I fold

This play only make sense if my opponent is semi-rational. If he will 3-bet the turn on a pure bluff or if he will bet into me on the river on a pure bluff after being raised on the turn, than I would just call down.

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes people seem to be more concerned with showing down the hand than with making the most profitable play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with your point but not your application in this case. Yes, we should be concerned with profitability and not just reaching the showdown "just in case" our hand is good. Here, I just don't see the turn raise as being more profitable since I don't think you will get a better hand to fold and getting AK to fold is close to breakeven for you given the pot odds. See more about this in my response below.

[ElSapo]

Homer,

I don't think there is any reasonble expectation that AA or KK will fold to that raise. They may well call and then bet the river, and it's in those situations I inevitably finding myself calling the final bet.

I don't see why calling down here is wrong, especially if your opponent will keep betting but fold to opposition. And I really can't see a better hand folding. AA is definitely showing down, and KK probably the same.

If I recall correctly, this is Party 2/4, which means a lot of crazy things can happen - including, at times, getting three-bet by an inferior (or potentially same) hand.

I'm open to arguments - the more experienced posters are saying raise the turn - but the value to it is not immediately apparently to me.

El Sapo

[ZAC]

[ QUOTE ]
I like this post a lot. Raising the flop accomplishes nothing. If he's capping AK preflop, nothing is stopping him from 3-betting the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? Sometimes, a PF cap does not really mean anything but to scare his opponents. If he is capping with AK preflop especially heads up. I don't see why a raise of his flop bet will not slow him down unless he either have the goods or he is more of a LAG. Whatever the result is in this specific instance, I make sure to make notes of this particular opponent.

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
This play only make sense if my opponent is semi-rational. If he will 3-bet the turn on a pure bluff or if he will bet into me on the river on a pure bluff after being raised on the turn, than I would just call down.

[/ QUOTE ]

This goes to my point. There are a lot of less than semi-rational players at Party $2/4. Against a rational player I think the turn raise is close to a breakeven play v. calling down as Hero did. Against a non-rational player there is too great a risk of laying down the better hand (after a crazy three bet) where you could have shown down a winner for the same number of bets. Without a specific read I think the better play here is just calling down.

[sfer]

How do you know if he's got the goods or if he's a LAG when he 3-bets the flop and you fold?

[AviD]

I think the only additional likeliness of AA/KK folding is that the turn pairs the board twice...and if you represent the Q by raising the turn...you may indeed get a fold.

[Homer]

Every time I read something like this I just scratch my head. I believe "raising and folding to a 3-bet" on the turn is generally very bad advice.

What does this hand have to do with in general? A worse hand will not three-bet you here and better hands (AA/KK) and hands with outs against you that you would like to lay down (AK) will sometimes fold.

Raising the turn is easily better than calling, there is no question.

EDIT: Can you give an explanation as to why you find this to generally be very bad advice?

[Homer]

You lose the same if you're behind.

Correct, unless your opponent folds a better hand, allowing you to steal the entire pot.

If you're ahead and he would fold to your turn raise, you can win an extra bet on the river.

Sometimes, but usually not. If your opponent has AA or KK, he/she will often check-call the river after you call the turn. Your chance to steal will be gone.

-- Homer

[colgin]

The board pairing fours on the turn should not affect the analysis of Hero's opponent if he holds AA or KK. From his point of view, he is either still in front of Hero or drawing to 6 outs if he thinks Hero has queens full but not quads. On the other hand, if he had something like pocket Jacks or Tens he would know he is drawing dead if Hero has a Queen.

[AviD]

Yes, good point. Thanks for the mind check! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Homer]

Let's say he calls the raise. Check through the river?

Yes, raise the turn as your last bets in the pot, generally speaking.

What if he calls and bets the river?

Fold. I don't know why everyone is acting like this will happen very often. 99% of the time you're going to be three-bet by a better hand than JJ, or AA/KK/AK will either call and check to you on the river or fold immediately.

If you find yourself raising the turn on a QQ44 board, having your opponent call and bet into you again on the river, and questioning whether you should call, you need to get into a game with less tricky opposition.

-- Homer

[AviD]

[ QUOTE ]

Let's say he calls the raise. Check through the river?

Yes, raise the turn as your last bets in the pot, generally speaking.

What if he calls and bets the river?

Fold. I don't know why everyone is acting like this will happen very often. 99% of the time you're going to be three-bet by a better hand than JJ, or AA/KK/AK will either call and check to you on the river or fold immediately.

If you find yourself raising the turn on a QQ44 board, having your opponent call and bet into you again on the river, and questioning whether you should call, you need to get into a game with less tricky opposition.

-- Homer


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I'd say that about sums up this thread nicely.

[Homer]

If I recall correctly, this is Party 2/4, which means a lot of crazy things can happen - including, at times, getting three-bet by an inferior (or potentially same) hand.

I'm talking about a standard opponent here. If you can't reliably fold to a three-bet, then just call it down. But against most opponents you have an easy fold to a three-bet.

[eh923]

Homer's right on with this.

And on top of the board being scary, there are still two other overcards that would be awful to see on the river. If popping the turn has a shot of making them fold, it's worth trying.

[Homer]

It just occurred to me that every controversial hand posted on this forum has to do with JJ. Hmmmm....

[sfer]

I'm coming around. Maybe I'll try doing some work for a couple hours and see what I think about it then. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ropey]

[ QUOTE ]
EDIT: Can you give an explanation as to why you find this to generally be very bad advice?

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, I don't think your opponent will lay down AA or KK here. With that said...

You have nothing to gain by raising the turn. You cannot win any more than 2 bets if you have the better hand.

Also, you cannot possibly lose more than 2 bets. If it is going to cost me 2 bets minimum, I am going with the alternative where I get to see my opponents cards, and at least have some chance at winning the pot.

This play probably works well at higher limits, where opponents are capable of laying down these types of hands. But in LL poker, I will always choose the option where I get to see my opponents cards. I (and I'm sure you have too) have seen many strange situations...I have won pots I didn't dream I had a chance of winning because I called down unpredictable opponents. In LL poker, it is "generally" not a good idea to make this type of move considering it cost you the same amount to see a showdown.

-ropey

[GuyOnTilt]

Hey Ropey,

First of all, I don't think your opponent will lay down AA or KK here.

Most won't most of the time, but some will some of the time. And most will never 3-bet.

You have nothing to gain by raising the turn. You cannot win any more than 2 bets if you have the better hand.

You do gain by raising the turn. You make AK fold, which as Homer pointed out is something you definitely want to happen. And you occassionally make a better hand fold as well.

Also, you cannot possibly lose more than 2 bets. If it is going to cost me 2 bets minimum, I am going with the alternative where I get to see my opponents cards, and at least have some chance at winning the pot.

If you check through on the river, you get to see your opponent's cards. Also, your last statement makes it sound like you have a better chance of winning if you call down, and little chance of winning by taking Homer's line. The exact opposite is true.

...I will always choose the option where I get to see my opponents cards.

See above. And this isn't a good reason not to value bet/raise the river when you have position HU...

In LL poker, it is "generally" not a good idea to make this type of move considering it cost you the same amount to see a showdown.

The fact that it costs the same amount while giving your opponent the chance to fold is EXACTLY why it's a better line in low limits.

Usually I don't like "free" showdown plays that much and I think they're overused by this forum, but in this particular hand, it's correct.

Also ropey, you said that you hate raising and folding to a 3-bet in general. Why? Just because you have a hand worth raising doesn't mean it deserves a showdown. Just last night I 4-bet the turn and folded to a 5-bet against an average opponent. A couple people made some comment about how I must've been bluffing because if my hand was really worth a 4-bet, it HAD to have been worth a showdown. This type of thinking is why I beat that game for over 1 BB/hr. They're my fish.

GoT

[tripdad]

maxpower,

what is irrational about 3 betting the turn on a pure bluff if you think it will win you the pot? i do it all the time.

cheers!

[bdk3clash]

&lt;snip excellent GoT post&gt;

[ QUOTE ]
Just last night I 4-bet the turn and folded to a 5-bet against an average opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yikes. Could you post this hand?

You'd be getting 12:2 on the turn and river action alone (not to count the preflop and flop action) to call there and to call his (inevitable) river bet. What was going on in this hand?

(My prediction: You either had two pair and the turn made a flush possible, or you had a small flush.)

[Rico Suave]

Hey Homer:

[ QUOTE ]
It just occurred to me that every controversial hand posted on this forum has to do with JJ. Hmmmm....

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it might be worthwhile to get Mason and David to add a new forum exclusively for JJ and AJo hand posts.

--Rico

[Rico Suave]

Thanks for everyone's input....great discussion.

My opponent takes the pot with AA.

When I was playing, I felt like raising on the flop was not going to get AK to fold, and if I was behind, it was just costing me extra. I considered raising the turn, but thought, like Ropey, that I could get to showdown for the same price. In addition there is a chance, although super slim, that I could improve on the river, and if I raised the turn and was 3-bet, I would have to fold without seeing the river.

Anyway, I appreciate everyone's help.

--Rico

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]
maxpower,

what is irrational about 3 betting the turn on a pure bluff if you think it will win you the pot? i do it all the time.

cheers!


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know how to reply to this because I'm not sure if you are being serious.

Maybe rationality wasn't the right word, but your average opponent doesn't 3-bet the turn unless he can beat Rico's hand. There are some who would, but they are fairly easy to spot.

If my opponent bluffs me off my hand with a 3-bet, I tip my cap and say, "well played sir."

Just the other day some guy three-bet me on the river on a pure bluff and then called my 4-bet, maybe he reads 2+2 and thought I would fold /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
. . . getting AK to fold is close to breakeven for you given the pot odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, well that's a mistake. Assuming that you won't catch another bluff from AK on the river (a fair assumption) you clearly would like to give AK a chance to fold to your raise here rather than just calling and giving him a chance to catch one of his outs.

[AceHigh]

But what about the times you do have trips or a set? Now when you raise what will your opponent do?

Can you see how this makes Homer a tougher opponent to play against than you?

[Rico Suave]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you see how this makes Homer a tougher opponent to play against than you?

[/ QUOTE ]

He is no doubt a way better player than me. I was just relaying my thinking. I think his line on this hand is better.

--Rico