Playing Trash Early

[threei]

My strategy early in a sng is to play solid poker. In some reading I've done recently, it is suggested to play as many hands as possible when the money is very deep. At the site I play at you start with t1500 10/20 blinds, lvl 2 is 15/30. Should I loosen up and try to get involved in more pots when the implied odds are so big. Almost every game I play I see 2 or 3 people busting out early calling big bets with top pair weak kicker, and sometimes less than that. I don't mind playing suited connectors, small pairs, but what about real trash like 4-7 off? If its only 20 or 30 to get in and you can possibly double up with a straight or two pair is it worth it? BTW, the author is very wary of danger hands like KJ, AT... But doesn't mind limping or min raising(if first one in) with trash. Part of this strategy is that when your opponents seeing you showing down trash, especially after raising, you will get a lot of action on your big hands. Not sure this would have much of an effect at the 10 +1's that I play, as opponents really don't pay much attention. You can not play a hand for 30 minutes and still get action when you do hit.

So is it worth it to waste t300 out of t1500 playing trash early in an effort to put yourself in a good chip position?

[alieneyes]

I think its rare playing complete trash will ever work, however getting in cheap with hands like JTo or 89s is perfectly fine in later positions.

I think you will find that a lot of people wouldn't consider 75 BB a very deep stack anyhow.

[CrisBrown]

Hi threei,

In order to play truly trash hands, you need not only deep money, but a tight (so you can steal the blinds) or passive (so you can draw cheaply) table. That combination doesn't occur often in SNG play, especially not at the early levels.

Cris

[GoSox]

I tried that for a while. What tends to happen is you hit a pair or a drawing hand and end up staying with it too long. It's tough to give it up and with the number of people that try to slow play solid hands it just costs you too much.

[jedi]

You can't win a SnG in the first round, but you can certainly lose it. Cris' advice is right on. You need a passive table that will allow you to draw cheaply and pay you off when you hit a big hand. If they won't let you do that, I think you're better off risking your chips elsewhere. As for me, I'm practically on Autofold in the early rounds unless I get a huge premium hand or in late position with no raises in front of me with a small pocket pair or Axs. There's plenty of poker to be played. Wait for a good spot and exploit your tight image later.

[Bigwig]

Early on when the blinds are 10/20, 15/20, and even sometimes when it is 25/50 (depending on your stack size), I like playing LOTS of not-so-good hands, but NEVER trash. 76s, for example, I'll play from 1st position if I think I won't see a raise. I used to play real tight in the early rounds, and found that too often I got to the late levels, but with a smaller stack. As soon as I started playing more hands early, and hitting those one or two big ones, I would get to the later rounds with a BIG stack, and my win % went way up.

[BradleyT]

[ QUOTE ]
Early on when the blinds are 10/20, 15/20, and even sometimes when it is 25/50 (depending on your stack size), I like playing LOTS of not-so-good hands, but NEVER trash. 76s, for example, I'll play from 1st position if I think I won't see a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain how you can tell whether or not ANY hand will get raised if you're in 1st position. Especially this early in the SnG when you don't have a read on the table.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Early on when the blinds are 10/20, 15/20, and even sometimes when it is 25/50 (depending on your stack size), I like playing LOTS of not-so-good hands, but NEVER trash. 76s, for example, I'll play from 1st position if I think I won't see a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain how you can tell whether or not ANY hand will get raised if you're in 1st position. Especially this early in the SnG when you don't have a read on the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I don't know for sure. But if I think the table is playing aggressive, I may not call at 15/30. At 10/20 though, I probably would. In first position, I've found that if you call you can induce others to call themselves, rather than raise. It's just a feeling, that's all.

[alieneyes]

[ QUOTE ]
Early on when the blinds are 10/20, 15/20, and even sometimes when it is 25/50 (depending on your stack size), I like playing LOTS of not-so-good hands, but NEVER trash. 76s, for example, I'll play from 1st position if I think I won't see a raise. I used to play real tight in the early rounds, and found that too often I got to the late levels, but with a smaller stack. As soon as I started playing more hands early, and hitting those one or two big ones, I would get to the later rounds with a BIG stack, and my win % went way up.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you consider not-so-good hands? Two big cards?

76s can better than KJo, especially up front, for example because what are you going to do on a flop of K63 with a two flush? You have no idea where anyone else is on the K and you could be against a four flush and middle pair or something. 76s also has the benefit of deception.

I'm not saying play 76s every time, but its far from a complete trash hand in my opinion.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Early on when the blinds are 10/20, 15/20, and even sometimes when it is 25/50 (depending on your stack size), I like playing LOTS of not-so-good hands, but NEVER trash. 76s, for example, I'll play from 1st position if I think I won't see a raise. I used to play real tight in the early rounds, and found that too often I got to the late levels, but with a smaller stack. As soon as I started playing more hands early, and hitting those one or two big ones, I would get to the later rounds with a BIG stack, and my win % went way up.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you consider not-so-good hands? Two big cards?

76s can better than KJo, especially up front, for example because what are you going to do on a flop of K63 with a two flush? You have no idea where anyone else is on the K and you could be against a four flush and middle pair or something. 76s also has the benefit of deception.

I'm not saying play 76s every time, but its far from a complete trash hand in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say 76s was complete trash. In first position, however, it's value is greatly reduced. Here's an example of something crappy I'd play in late position, early on, if there is no raise:

97o
53s
85s

Something like that.

[Gar Pike]

I think it takes about 2 or 3 hands to put the table on a style of play, with a bit of experience. You get a lot more data to work with than you do trying to put one person on a style, and way more than you do trying to put a player on a particular hand.

There are, of course, no guarantees that the particular hand you choose to go in with your 78s isn't going to get raised, even with a table full of calling stations, but you can estimate the probability that will happen.

That's what we base our game on, estimation of probability. The better we do that, the better we play the game.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]


That's what we base our game on, estimation of probability. The better we do that, the better we play the game.



[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. With some experience, you can read a table pretty fast.

[BradleyT]

I don't buy that at all.

If I get T4o and J3o and fold my first two hands, how can you put me on a style? Let's say I get A8o next and raise. You have no clue as to what my holdings are.

[ThaSaltCracka]

I use to think along these lines as well, with completely disasterious results. You waste to many chips seeing flops you shouldn't see. You call min reraises that you shouldn't. simply bad bad bad play. I am not criticizing or chastizing simply saying my experience with this type of play.

I have noticed early that the pots are either fairly small of huge. Do you want to risk your chips for pots like that with anything other than solid cards. I don't personally.
you also may notice early in many tourneys, someone always gets a huge stack quick. why? I would say most of the time (75%) it is because that person is a fish, ie they got lucky. I love watching this happen because I know he usually gives it back.

I have started to notice the players who hover right around 1500(on stars) for the first two rounds are usually the stronger players on the table. I try to do this as well because I play fairly tight at first. As I said earlier I do this because of the pots usually associated with rounds 1-2. Also I want some of the maniacs to be knocked out as well.

I try to wait till the blinds are around 25/50 and up before I start to make my move. I would rather win 3-4 pots at this level than 5-6 at 10/15 or 15/30.

So basically what I am advocating is to not be loose at the begining, others may see it differently, but I am basing this on my personal experience. I don't think implied odds mean much early in a tourney anyways.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't buy that at all.

If I get T4o and J3o and fold my first two hands, how can you put me on a style? Let's say I get A8o next and raise. You have no clue as to what my holdings are.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't get every individual's style. But you can get a feel for how the table is going to be. Last night, within the first few hands at one table there were several all-ins. At another table I was playing simueltaneously, twice everyone folded to me in late position. The games stayed that way the whole way through. I won the super loose one and came in third in the tight one, in case you cared. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
I use to think along these lines as well, with completely disasterious results. You waste to many chips seeing flops you shouldn't see. You call min reraises that you shouldn't. simply bad bad bad play. I am not criticizing or chastizing simply saying my experience with this type of play.

I have noticed early that the pots are either fairly small of huge. Do you want to risk your chips for pots like that with anything other than solid cards. I don't personally.
you also may notice early in many tourneys, someone always gets a huge stack quick. why? I would say most of the time (75%) it is because that person is a fish, ie they got lucky. I love watching this happen because I know he usually gives it back.

I have started to notice the players who hover right around 1500(on stars) for the first two rounds are usually the stronger players on the table. I try to do this as well because I play fairly tight at first. As I said earlier I do this because of the pots usually associated with rounds 1-2. Also I want some of the maniacs to be knocked out as well.

I try to wait till the blinds are around 25/50 and up before I start to make my move. I would rather win 3-4 pots at this level than 5-6 at 10/15 or 15/30.

So basically what I am advocating is to not be loose at the begining, others may see it differently, but I am basing this on my personal experience. I don't think implied odds mean much early in a tourney anyways.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a difference between playing 'loose' and making calls when you've got 75XBB in your stack. I remember a tourney last night where I made a full house a 97o (flopped two pair). An A flopped with it, and I got action from a guy holding AK all the way through. He called an all-in, and bam! -- I was up to 2900 chips. I used the stack to push everyone around the rest of the tourney. 20 chips is a small risk for a potential major reward, when nobody can put you on a hand.

That being said, with 6 callers in a pot, you can't be calling raises without a terrific hand. THAT would be playing loose. There's a difference.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
There's a difference between playing 'loose' and making calls when you've got 75XBB in your stack. I remember a tourney last night where I made a full house a 97o (flopped two pair). An A flopped with it, and I got action from a guy holding AK all the way through. He called an all-in, and bam! -- I was up to 2900 chips. I used the stack to push everyone around the rest of the tourney. 20 chips is a small risk for a potential major reward, when nobody can put you on a hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

explain how you played this hand and how AK played the hand.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]


explain how you played this hand and how AK played the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I called (4 callers + BB). I was next to the button, but he folded. I had 97. Flop came A 9 7. The AK bet out about 100 and I called. The turn came 2. He bet another 100, and I called. The river came 7. He bet like 300, and i reraised him all-in, and he called.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]



[/ QUOTE ]

explain how you played this hand and how AK played the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously, BTW, the guy made a mistake by not raising his AK preflop, which would have driven me out of the pot. It was an AK suited (and he had a 4 flush on the turn, I might add), so I guess he was trying to trap. But hey, part of winning is taking advantage of someone's mistake, no?

[ThaSaltCracka]

so you limped in Late posistion with 97o, and AK(is he BB?) doesn't raise preflop?
I am not sure who made the worst preflop play, probably AK.
Oh well, good hand, but winning with garbage always makes you think you can win with garbage, so you probably play more hands than you should. I still wouldn't play that hand though.

[esbesb]

I'm no expert, but here's my take: Very early on, especially in mid to late position, play any connecting cards above 34 (including gappers like 57 or 79) and any suited hand with a high card (say, jack of above). Here is my reasoning: During the first couple of orbits of the table, the blinds are 10 then 20. Where I play, we start with 1000. So, if I am not raised, the blinds for the first couple of orbits represent a mere 1% or 2% of my stack. If I have a chance to double up by hitting a great flop, I'll take it even if it means my stack is somewhat reduced when the blinds go up in level three. Of course, I am looking to flop a big hand, in which case the original poster is right that I think you will find people with one pair willing to go all in.

Simply put, a smaller blind in relation to your stack lets you see way more flops with marginal hands that might pay off. And you don't need to continue with the strategy past the first 2-3 orbits of the table (at most) so the worst that can usually happen is that your stack is down slightly when it comes time to tighten up. The problem comes when people catch part of the flop, but not a great flop, and continue to invest more in the face of a probably better hand.

That's my take. Who disagrees?

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
so you limped in Late posistion with 97o, and AK(is he BB?) doesn't raise preflop?
I am not sure who made the worst preflop play, probably AK.
Oh well, good hand, but winning with garbage always makes you think you can win with garbage, so you probably play more hands than you should. I still wouldn't play that hand though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, 97 isnt' TOTAL garbage. But it's not a good hand, even heads up. Still, it affords an opportunity for a straight, AND you're assured that someone won't put you on it. That's a strategy i use heads-up. I raise anything I'm going to play, even somewhat bad heads up hands (like 85s) so I can never be put on a hand. It's a really easy way to trap someone, and in NL, trapping for the big hands is how you win.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm no expert, but here's my take: Very early on, especially in mid to late position, play any connecting cards above 34 (including gappers like 57 or 79) and any suited hand with a high card (say, jack of above). Here is my reasoning: During the first couple of orbits of the table, the blinds are 10 then 20. Where I play, we start with 1000. So, if I am not raised, the blinds for the first couple of orbits represent a mere 1% or 2% of my stack. If I have a chance to double up by hitting a great flop, I'll take it even if it means my stack is somewhat reduced when the blinds go up in level three. Of course, I am looking to flop a big hand, in which case the original poster is right that I think you will find people with one pair willing to go all in.

Simply put, a smaller blind in relation to your stack lets you see way more flops with marginal hands that might pay off. And you don't need to continue with the strategy past the first 2-3 orbits of the table (at most) so the worst that can usually happen is that your stack is down slightly when it comes time to tighten up. The problem comes when people catch part of the flop, but not a great flop, and continue to invest more in the face of a probably better hand.

That's my take. Who disagrees?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the overall strategy, except for saying ANY gap or connector, regardless of suit. I believe in position. I'll play 64s in late or maybe even mid position early, but not early. Also, I don't like playing 'any' two suited cards. I usually won't play J /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif heads up, let alone with a full table.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, 97 isnt' TOTAL garbage.

[/ QUOTE ]
first of all 97 is total garbage, especially with a full table. The fact that you got incredibly lucky and flopped two pair and then hit you boat to beat AK should not change that at all. I would only consider playing this hand if they were suited and I was in the SB or BB, period.

[ QUOTE ]
Still, it affords an opportunity for a straight, AND you're assured that someone won't put you on it.

[/ QUOTE ]
sure you have a chance for a stright and sure no one will put you on it, but you also run the chance of flopping a pair and losing to an over pair or a set, or even to over cards calling a rag flop, only to hit their top pair on the turn or river. Playing garbage will turn your stack into garbage.

[ QUOTE ]
AND you're assured that someone won't put you on it. That's a strategy i use heads-up. I raise anything I'm going to play, even somewhat bad heads up hands (like 85s) so I can never be put on a hand. It's a really easy way to trap someone, and in NL, trapping for the big hands is how you win.

[/ QUOTE ]
I like your strategy here, however only when you are four handed or less, not when the table is full or near full.

[Vern]

Where does a suited Ace fit into this. If you hold Axs (where the x<=9) on the button in one of these SnG's and there are nothing but limpers, do you enter or toss and if you enter, how? What about in the CO, do you raise min to try and get the button or limp with the limpers. I am of course talking early on with several limpers and 8-10 players still in the tourny.

Vern

[talkinghead]

[ QUOTE ]

sure you have a chance for a stright and sure no one will put you on it, but you also run the chance of flopping a pair and losing to an over pair or a set, or even to over cards calling a rag flop, only to hit their top pair on the turn or river. Playing garbage will turn your stack into garbage.



[/ QUOTE ]

Not an early garbage player myself but i think the folk who do are not looking to get involved with as little as a pair and have the good sense to lay those 7's down

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
Where does a suited Ace fit into this. If you hold Axs (where the x<=9) on the button in one of these SnG's and there are nothing but limpers, do you enter or toss and if you enter, how? What about in the CO, do you raise min to try and get the button or limp with the limpers. I am of course talking early on with several limpers and 8-10 players still in the tourny.

Vern

[/ QUOTE ]

Ax suited < 9 is a hand I would just call on the button at a full table. Sure, they're are only limpers, but a raise puts you into a short-handed table where the callers may have AQo, 99, etc. -- hands that you're behind on. Besides, the great thing about Ax suited is the possibility of hitting a home run with a nut flush, and to get the most out of that hand, you need players after the flop.

[Moonsugar]

I think it depends mainly on 2 things:

1) How well do you play post flop?

and

2) Who is in the hand already?

If you play postflop like Daniel Negreanu then I can see playing just about anything in the first couple of rounds (or anytime actually!), depending on opponents. If you play like I did this weekend then, well, you just shouldn't be playing /images/graemlins/mad.gif

Who your opponents are should greatly influence what hands you play. Some guys only bet when the have something, someguys always trap, etc. The more predictable/bluffable someone is the more hands you should play against him.

One thing that can be said about trash (or middle connectors, or lower pair, etc.) is the hand is easy to fold if you don't hit.