Just came in 5th in a multi tourney and still feel like I lost (RANT)

[colos1]

I just finished 5th in a 800 person multi-table turney yet i still fell like a loser. I have won $635 for a $5 entry fee but i am still pissed off at myself. I always play ring games and i decided what the hell I'll play some mult table tourneys tonight. The 1st one I ever played i came in 8th place and won $68. I have played poker for the past 10 years on a fairly regular basis but I can honestly say I have never felt the rush of addrenaline like I did when got down to the final 20 people or so. After i won that i figured what the hell I'll jump in another and came in 768 out of 1129 people. There was another Multi table tourney starting just as thatt one finished and i figured ok what the hell maybeI'll place in the money again. This is the tourney that i came in 5th place in and won $635. This is also the tourney that has made me get back out of bed after tossing and turning and come down here to post this rant.
Looking back i believe I played dman near perfect poker the entire way up until the last table. I had a substantial chip lead of about 900k when there was about 25 people or so left and at that time the 2nd chip leader had about 400k.
One hand of importance was when there were only two tables left. I was dealt Pocket AA and one of the players went all in for 300k or so. He had KK I had AA, Flop comes up AK2
turn brings up an 8 River brings up another K. That brought me down to about 600k in chips and made him the chip leader at the time. About 20 minutes later i get to the final table with no signifacant change in my stack. This is the hand that Is causing me to be pissed at myself and curse the hell outa my friend (in my mind) . At this point there were 8 of us left and i had 600k or so in chips. I am in the cuttoff position and it is folded to me. I raise to 100k, the button which is the chip leader leader of about 690k goes all in, the SB goes all in for about 300k and the Bb goes all in for about 400K. Now as I playing my friend was watching me play from his house (he was in the same tourney and got knocked out early) When i raised before the flop he asked me what I had I told him AK (we were messaging each other thru MSN) just as I was about to call all in after thinking about it for 15 seconds or so I ehar this beep beep beep beep beep beep beep, this "beep" was my buddy saying:
NO
STOP
DON'T
DON'T DO IT
IT'S 400 BONES
STOP
NO

Now i don't know if you have ever placed near the money in a tourney before but I have to say the pressure is HUGE when you realize that you have a real good shot of coming in 1st and snagging the 3k prize. My palms were sweaty my heart was pumping, the addrenaline was just charging thru my body. I have played poker for the past 10 years or so and I have never felt like that before. There was enough pressure already without getting that 6 beep's and 6 messages saying NO STOP NO. My friend knows how I play and he knew I was going to go all in which is what i was going to do, until HE CAUSED ME TO 2ND GUESS MYSELF AND I HIT THE FOLD BUTTON. Needless to say my AK would have been good. The chip leader who went all in had QQ, the small Blind also had QQ and the BB had 1010. I would have made two pair Aces and Kings and knocked out 3 guys in 1 shot putting me in the chip lead with about 2 million in chips and a very real chance at 1st place. After that I lost about 300k to a flush on the river and then It was my big blind, needless to say I was the next one knocked out of the tourney put i did manage to hang in there for a couple rounds of the button or so. I can't help thinking if only my friend hadn't messaged me I would be sitting there with 2 million in chips and probably would have won the tourney. After folding that hand I ended up being short stacked and had to make a lot of desperation all ins to buy blinds and such that I wouldn't have had to make if I HAD JUST CALLED THAT DAMN HAND. Anyways I feel a little bit better now and I guess the moral of the story is do what you think is right, don't listen to anyone else no matter how much pressure you are under. And in the end I do not Blame my buddy, I blame myself (Ok maybe i do blame him a little bit)

The tourney was on Paradise Poker it was a 10k guaranteed something or other with rebuys allowed and my screen name is HghSociety in case anyone was interested.
See ya at the next multi Tourney! With MSN messenger turned off of course!

[Grivan]

You probably don't want to hear this, but I think your friend gave you great advice here. With 3 people all in behind your raise on the final table chances are that you are up against at least one AA or KK. I am pretty sure I would fold in this position every single time, and I wouldn't even think twice about it. In hind sight you would have won this time, but I hardly think that is going to be the case enough to justify a call here for all of your chips.

[AceKQJT]

Hi Colos1,

I think you are maybe getting too worked up over the results. I just wonder how you would have felt before the flop....all-in....when you were in fourth place behind (3) pocket pairs?

I would have probably pushed here myself, but judging your actions based on results is rarely a good choice. How many times have you thrown away a hand like 9-2 and the flop comes 9-9-2 or something similar? Are you going to determine that 9-2 should always be played in case something like this happens? of course not.

Congradulations on your 5th place finish.

--Casey

[PSS]

No sure why you are so pissed off about folding AK in this spot. Typically you'll be up against one or two big pocket pairs and another big Ace or two, reducing your odd of hitting TPTK. And that's if your NOT up against AA or KK, which seems fairly likely to me.

You'll usually be a pretty big dog to win the whole pot, and at the same time people will get knocked out in this hand promoting you up the pay out listings.
Good fold IMO.

PSS

[CCass]

Grivan is right. Folding was the correct play here. If you had known your opponents hands, you would have a 44% chance of winning (I am not going to push all-in with a 44% in this instance), and not knowing your opponents hands, you have to assume AA or KK is out there. Also, you will have no chips at risk, and have a very good possibility of gaining 2 places after this hand.

The fold was the correct play.

[TheGrifter]

Well, first off, I think telling your friend what you have and soliciting his advice is cheating, especially if you are allowing it to change the way you play a hand.

Also, and don't take this the wrong way, generally in large field tournaments, the person who has an overwhelming chip lead going into the last couple of tables usually doesn't win. This is because that super-aggressive style that builds the big stack is going to be played back at as the field is trimmed and blinds increase. You probably had a great run of cards that just petered out towards the end.

I would say you are very very fortunate to have done so well with such limited experience. As to this particular hand, because this is a 5 dollar tournament it's difficult to fold AK here, but you should. Although players at this level will push in (even behind a bet and two all ins) with anything ranging from JJ to AQ, these players DO get AA/KK and with 3 of them in you should get out. If just the chip leader had pushed in and not the others, I may call here.

[Elvis]

The fold was definitely correct. Even if you *knew* there was no KK or AA out there, you must consider the risk of someone else holding AK, taking away one third of your outs and half of your potential win.

Jonas

[Crispyk]

Yeah, Folding is right if for no other reason then to know that 2 of the players would be out after that hand moving you up the money. Read Sklansky's Tournament poker book, he talks about that, you had to realize you were up against at least 1 pocket pair putting you about a 50/50 either way, if you can fold and walk your way up the ladder. Why wouldn't you?

[PlayerA]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you are maybe getting too worked up over the results. I just wonder how you would have felt before the flop....all-in....when you were in fourth place behind (3) pocket pairs?


[/ QUOTE ]

Against that set of hands, I would've felt great (even if I didn't hit, I would've felt great); the call is hugely +EV for AK. AK wins about 43% of the time and there is more than enough in the pot to justify it.

Having said that, I would fold AK here for reasons others have mentioned (the possibility that some of my outs are taken).

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

Your friend was right. Folding was the correct move in this situation. You are a big dog to win and folding up a few places can really make a difference. There are times in a tourney where it is right to fold everything, including AA on the button. Having twice as many chips as the next guy on the final table may actually be one of those situations (although I don't know if I could make myself do it).

[Senor Choppy]

First of all, your friend was right. More often than not someone else will have AK, AA, or KK, which destroy your overall chances against 3 opponents (AK because 1/3 of your outs are gone, and so is half the pot if you win....AA & KK should be obvious).

Even if you had aces here and your friend told you to fold, so what? If you didn't want his advice why were you talking to him in the first place?

Next time you're in a tournament, you should inform the person watching that if they give good advice that costs you money because of unfortunate results, you're going to hate them afterwards.

[Senor Choppy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you are maybe getting too worked up over the results. I just wonder how you would have felt before the flop....all-in....when you were in fourth place behind (3) pocket pairs?


[/ QUOTE ]

Against that set of hands, I would've felt great (even if I didn't hit, I would've felt great); the call is hugely +EV for AK. AK wins about 43% of the time and there is more than enough in the pot to justify it.

Having said that, I would fold AK here for reasons others have mentioned (the possibility that some of my outs are taken).

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd auction off my first born on Ebay for an opportunity like this! IIRC, he got around 4-1 on his call preflop, for what's almost a coin flip, anyone that would pass up an opportunity like that preflop shouldn't be playing in tournaments.

Of course, there would've been no way to know this...still an easy fold preflop.

[M.B.E.]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, first off, I think telling your friend what you have and soliciting his advice is cheating, especially if you are allowing it to change the way you play a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not necessarily; it depends on the rules of the site.

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, first off, I think telling your friend what you have and soliciting his advice is cheating, especially if you are allowing it to change the way you play a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not necessarily; it depends on the rules of the site.

[/ QUOTE ]

"One player to a hand" is at least a convention, if not a rule (and usually it is also a rule). If you had a friend on the rail at a live tournament, there is no way you could ask him his advice on how to play a hand; you would be given a penalty for certain.

It may not be against the rules of the site, but I think it is at least ethically questionable...

[augie00]

maybe you'll fell better if you think about it like this:

instead of it being a $5 multi, pretend that it's the 200/15 sunday quarter million guaranteed tournament. Instead of moving up three spots in the money for 400 bucks, think that you're moving up three spots in the money for 10 grand. brunson says that you should try to play the same regardless of the stakes.

there's no way you could have made that call.

[M.B.E.]

[ QUOTE ]
"One player to a hand" is at least a convention, if not a rule (and usually it is also a rule). If you had a friend on the rail at a live tournament, there is no way you could ask him his advice on how to play a hand; you would be given a penalty for certain.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I agree. But rules for live poker don't necessarily apply online. For example, in most b&m cardrooms you're not allowed to play two games at once; online it's encouraged. Perhaps more pertinent: in a b&m cardroom it's against the rules to use a calculator during a hand (and to do so surreptitiously would be cheating). But I see nothing wrong with that when playing online.

As for "one player to a hand", I don't see anything really objectionable with two people sitting in front of the computer and making playing decisions together, as long as the rules of the site don't prohibit it. In fact, there was an article in Esquire a while ago by someone who took poker lessons from Wendeen Eolis, and that was one of the teaching techniques.

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
maybe you'll fell better if you think about it like this:

instead of it being a $5 multi, pretend that it's the 200/15 sunday quarter million guaranteed tournament. Instead of moving up three spots in the money for 400 bucks, think that you're moving up three spots in the money for 10 grand. brunson says that you should try to play the same regardless of the stakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree it is a good fold *but* the logic above fails to take into account the fact that the players you are facing at the end of a $5 buy in tournament are probably nowhere near the caliber of players you face at the end of a $200 buy-in tournament...

[TheGrifter]

That's why I said "I think". In my opinion it is cheating even if the site doesn't forbid it.

[TheGrifter]

Call me old school, but I just don't see poker as a "team" game.

[colos1]

Ok i have to respond to all these comnments about cheating becuase I was definately was not cheating. Not once during the entire toureny did I seek his advice, nor did he ever offer it to me. He was watching for the last 2 hours or so and anytime i got a hand like AA, KK AK i simply told him what i had. Not once did ever seek out ask for his advice, His advice came UNWANTED UNNEEDED AND DEFINATELY UNASKED FOR!!! and definately at the wrong time, which caused me to 2nd guess myself and fold the winning hand. I resent the fact that there are some people out there who think I was cheating.

I also agree with the poster on this board that generally folding Ak would have been the right move but you have to understand the table circumstances. The last 20 or 30 hands or so there weas not even a flop seen as the general routine on that table was to have someone go all in and everone else fold. Everyone was playing super cautious and super tight. As soon as there was an all in move everyone folded. This went on for I would say a good 30 hands or so.
I thought that after my raise the 2nd place chip leader was doing his normal all in routine and was trying to buy the pot and i wasn't worried about loosing to the other 2 all in caller because one went all in for 60K and the other all in for about 110K. So there was only one hand that i was worried about and that was the 2nd place chip leader who routinely went all in. If i lost to the other 2 all in callers the most I would have lost was 110k and I Believe that calling AK for 110k is definately and acceptable risk especially if you think the 2nd chip leader was trying to buy the pot as he did pretty much every other hand.

So now that you underatnad the table circumstances was folding Ak still the right move?

[Lottery Larry]

Do you normally want to take a hand that is behind and has to hit a card to win, against 3 other players, and call here? The two QQ were drawing dead but the TT wasn't

Fold the hand

[TheGrifter]

It is only my opinion that you are cheating, if it is not forbidden in the sites T & C. But it IS my opinion that you were cheating, oh well, that's how I feel about it.

And to answer your question you've completely changed the stack sizes from the original post. In your original post one of the blinds has 400K and another had 300K. If you're up against AA or KK here then you're in big big trouble.

By the time the third player is all in it is definitely time to muck the AK, or you can play like 99% of the people in low buy in tournies and not let go of it no matter what the action is, it's up to you.