my opponenets and idiot right?

[knifeandfork]

taj 3-6 10 handed
i see a cheap flop 4 handed with kq from the sb which is
Q 7 3 rainbow i check as do the mp and first lp bets and the other folded to me and figuring this to be a pretty good flop for kq with no pfr i raise mp calls two cold? and lp i assume was trying to pick it up folds? the next card off is a 10 and i bet he calls so i put him on being a calling station..... (im new to the table btw second hand i think) the next card off is a seven(no flush btw) and i check he bets now a better player than me could fold here but i couldnt i called and he showed me k7o for 3 7s and the pot. i dunno that i did anything wrong here but perhaps calling on the end or not going for the checkraise turn but i think both those plays are bad i came to the conclusion that my opp is an idiot. im new to this forum and just finished up playing my first year of poker so im sure this is just another bad beat but any thoughts on what i could have done better keeping in mind im playing 3-6 here where in my experience raising preflop without a group one or two hand seems to just get me tied to the pot and losing bets along the way. i dunno but i love this game:)

[Dynasty]

With an MP and two LPs in the hand, I'll assume the flop was taken five handed rather than four handed since the Big Blind must have gotten a free look at the flop. That means there were 5 small bets in the pot before the flop.

With KQo after three limpers, the decision whether to raise or limp pre-flop is close enough so that it's not too worthy of discussion. With just two limpers, I definitely think everybody should be raising. With 3+ limpers, calling becomes a more practical option. If your pre-flop play is a mistake, it's only a small one.

However, your flop play is bad in two ways. On a Q,7,3 rainbow flop, you've got a very strong hand in a very small pot. So, your first mistake is failing to simply bet out. There aren't any draws which you can expect to bet the hand. The chances of somebody having a worse Queen are not that great. The chances of this ragged flop getting checked through seem too high. Take the simple approach by betting your hand.

The second mistake is check-raising if your intention is to drive opponents out. One thing I think you are failing to understand is that the pot is so small that you want your opponents drawing with just middle pair or bottom pair. Let's say you just called the flop bet. When the action gets to MP, the pot has 7 small bets in it. In that situation, he's incorrect to call with middle pair or bottom pair. So, you want him to call getting 7:1. But, your strategy seems to be to force out those weak hands.

Of course, if you thought somebody would call two bets with either middle or bottom pair, then you would obviously want to raise.

On the river, you should have bet.

[Ed Miller]

taj 3-6 10 handed
i see a cheap flop 4 handed with kq from the sb

I'm sorry. I didn't get any further than this.

[Schmed]

I pretty much agree with everything that Dynasty said about the hand and how it should be played.

I think one thing you have to be careful of and that is getting all pissed about a guy calling with garbage and catching his garbage. It's obvious that you're still not too happy about it. I love it. I compliment them. I say NH and mean it.

Bottom line, there is a certain percentage of the time a guy like that is going to hit. He hit on you. NH sir.....walk away knowing that players that play like that are the reason why good players make more than ever now. 2bb/hr bah....sit at a table with 2-3 players like that and watch 2 turn in to 5. Seems to me I have a couple of these guys trying to chase me down all the time. When they catch yeah it sucks, I may not make as much, I may have to grind to get to even....I may even take a loss..... But they don't catch as many times as they are beaten. They will call you all the time and will pay you off with that 2nd pair because they are stuck in the pot on the river.

It's just another slot machine for these kinds of players. All slot machines have a grind.... the tight agg player is the grind against the slot machine players in poker......

[Tosh]

Are you one of those people that complains a lot about his bad luck when you get aces and everyone folds ?

Btw bet the flop and the river.

[Noodles]

Should we be raising KQo always if limped to sb?

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
Should we be raising KQo always if limped to sb?

[/ QUOTE ]

Against two weak limpers, yes. You'll often win the pot simply by betting with an unimproved KQ and getting your opponents to fold.

Against three, it's close and doesn't matter much.

[sthief09]

No one else thinks this is a clear turn bet? Personally, in a very small pot, if I check-raise the flop, then bet and get raised on the turn when the middle card pairs, I won't lose too much sleep over folding.

Also periods and paragraphs help for the whole reading process because I think I missed half of what you wrote by doing my best to ignore the parts where you were just rambling because I didn't know what to read because it all just seemed like one big thought where you weren't quite sure what you wanted to say when you were complaining about a bad beat that cost you 21 bucks and saying that your opponent is an idiot instead of concentrating on what you did wrong which could have maybe won you the pot.

See what I mean?

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
No one else thinks this is a clear turn bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

He did bet the turn. However, he should have also bet the river.



[/ QUOTE ]Also periods and paragraphs help for the whole reading process because I think I missed half of what you wrote

[/ QUOTE ]

You sure did.

[knifeandfork]

thanks for your input gentlemen especially dyansty i shouldnt say im new to the game(kind of new one year 90% nlh) but im very new to limit so a lot of the subtleties miss me. one thing i seem to hear is that i should be raising these pots with the marginal hands(in this case kq off seems marginal because of my position) this seems to me that it is a better play against non obliviious players like at the 10-20 level (they seem to average about three per game at this level with as many as 5 and none both having been sited in this last trip). so i guess my point is when i raise preflop with a hand like kq and then miss then bet bc i was the preflop raiser then get called by two players do i shoot again on the turn, or check fold? also when i raise and get reraised to three bets i now feel like i almost have to call the 3rd bet to avoid getting wailed on by the three conscious players at the table when i raise. somehow despite my very mediocre play i had 6 winning sessions one losiing session of 2-4 and two more or less break even sessions this last trip. perhaps a re-read of hfap is what i really need. thanks to all of you except the guy that quoted my first line and quit reading maybe im too stupid to post even but your reply said nothing, i dont even know how you are insulting me

[sthief09]

You will find Ed to be one of the helpful people on the forum. Instead of taking his response as an insult, why don't you try to look for the value in it. I think he was implying that if KQ only deserves "seeing acheap flop" in your mind, then you have some rethinking to do. He never called you dumb.

I'm new to the forums also, and I find that if you try to understand the responses you get, even if you don't agree with them, you'll learn a LOT.

Also, I honestly just can't read your responses. I'd say I'm able to get about 20% of the content out of it. Please at least break them up into paragraphs because I have ADD and the mass of words confuses me.

[knifeandfork]

thanks. ill try sentences in the future. punctuation often eludes me. i guess living in virginia faulkner's ghost permeates us. btw one of the consistent winners in my area tells me kq is an easy fold ten handed here. that is why im confused ive heard a wide range of opinions on kqo and this hand in particular. thanks again one day i may be able to contribute more to this forum for now im just trying to learn.

[sthief09]

People here tend to like KQo a lot. I think the reasoning behind it is that if you're playing against weak competition, their hands are so bad pre-flop, that your KQo (against 3 or less opponents) will have a big advantage over their hands. I've been playing it aggressively lately and it seems to be working.

And don't think that just because you don't answer questions, you aren't contributing. If people like you and me didn't ask questions, then the guys that seem to know it all wouldn't have anything to write about. Half the time when I answer peoples' questions, I'm just seeing people disagree with my opinions.

[umdpoker]

i don't think kqo can be folded here ever. in nl poker, i could see a case for it. that would only be if you knew the other players were really tight and you suck post-flop like me.