Two Hands for Review

[Warik]

Comments most appreciated.

Hand #1

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.stompandcrush.com/cgi-bin/hhparser.cgi)

Preflop: Warik is SB with 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Warik completes, BB checks.

Flop: (9 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(9 players)</font>
Warik checks, BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button calls, Warik raises, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, Button calls.

Turn: (11 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
Warik bets, UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 folds, Button 3-bets, Warik calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

River: (26 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
Warik checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, Button raises, Warik calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 34 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 34 BB, between Button, Warik, UTG and UTG+1.</font>

----------------------------

Hand #2

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.stompandcrush.com/cgi-bin/hhparser.cgi)

Preflop: Warik is Button with 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Warik calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (16 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(8 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Warik calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+2 calls, Warik raises, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls.

River: (18.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, Warik bets, SB raises, UTG calls, UTG+2 folds, Warik 3-bets, SB calls, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 26.50 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 26.50 BB, between Warik and SB.</font>

Results to come.

[rjc199]

Hand 1:
Bet out on the flop. This is a trash board, but well coordinated. Nobody is folding anything and you don't want to give free cards. Nobody could really suspect you for a set either. Also, you should never be slowplaying this hand with this many people with that sort of board.

When you get 3-bet on the turn, then you call and hope the board pairs on the river. Go call the river since the pot is huge, but I doubt seriously you won. Don't sweat it though, just remember to play your set faster next time. Don't get fancy unless you are headsup against a decent opponent.

hand 2:
This is a good call preflop, 4 guys are in the pot already.

On the flop this is a good call. The pot is huge, you have lots of outs.

Turn and river: textbook! Whether you won or lost this particular hand doesn't matter. Your play was +EV

[Warik]

Hand 1:

Button, UTG, and UTG+1 flip: [8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif], [7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif], and [5/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif] for the straights, 8-high taking the pot.

I wasn't trying to slowplay or give free cards. I was the SB in a 9-player flop and was certain that somebody would bet the flop. I was check-raising for value. I should probably have folded the turn instead of calling two cold since it would be very unlikely that one of these uber-fish didn't have a 2 or a 7 in this 6-way hand.

Hand 2:

SB flips 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif. I laughed out loud on this hand because after being riverdanced in the past 2-3 hands I've played by a runner-runner flush, I now get riverdanced by a straight (yes, I know he had the odds to call all the way... I would have actually raised the flop if I were him, but it still sux /images/graemlins/frown.gif)

Would any of you do anything differently on either of these hands, or possibly throw them away before the showdown?

[Rico Suave]

Hey Warick:

First of all, I must honestly commend you on your table selection. Outstanding job!

Hand 1:
I would probably go ahead and lead out on the flop and hope to 3 bet.

On the river, I know the pot is huge, and you are getting 15:1 on your call, but I think I would lay this one down here, especially with others to act behind. I just cannot see how you are still ahead with that board and with that many players still contesting the pot.

Hand 2:

I fold this preflop everytime.

On the river, the sb c/r you after cold calling your turn raise. I would give him credit for a strong hand (although it is hard to see that the river 3 made his hand). I would just call his raise here.

--Rico

[2000Flushes]

I don't think 3betting a check-raise here is +EV

On a side note, don't you love players that stop raising on the river with the nuts /images/graemlins/smile.gif you should thank him silently for that

[TheRake]

Warik,

Hand 1 - It sucks, but I think you can safely lay your hand down on the river for 2 bets. Pretty obvious you are beat even if the pot is big. I like your c/r on the flop and calling the turn raise is a must.

Hand 2 - Doubt I 3 bet the river on this one. If this player was even half competent he would have capped the river. Fish logic I guess.

TheRake

[2000Flushes]

[ QUOTE ]
Fish logic I guess

[/ QUOTE ]

So right. You know he's thinking something like "well the other guy might call if i dont cap it, but maybe they'll both fold if i do"

[chief444]

Hand #1 I think you played well except for the river. I would confidently muck for 2 BB's knowing someone had the straight. Good play otherwise though.

Hand #2 Unless UTG is overaggressive pf I muck this. You're against a pf raise from an opponent in the worst position and you have a hand that could get you in a lot of trouble by making second-best. I like your play once you decide to see the flop though.

[Warik]

Thanks for the comments.

In hindsight for hand #1 I should have probably just folded the river. It's a big pot and I have a good hand but with 3 others involved I'd be very surprised if nobody had a 2 or a 7.

For everybody who says they fold K4s to a preflop raise every time - so do I. The only reason I did and would EVER call this preflop is because it's 9 to the flop and I'm in the absolute best position. My flop call was because I guesstimated that I had the odds to call a single bet hoping to turn a 4 or a king. I was getting 18:1 on a 22.5:1 shot + 14.666:1 shot... what are my total odds for you statisticians out there? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

So what logic do you guys use to determine when is the time to ram &amp; jam vs. slow down when it comes to hands like these? I have two strong hands - a set and two pair - do I think "uh oh, there's a possible straight out there and somebody raised me! check-call time!" or is it another "depends" case?

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]

My flop call was because I guesstimated that I had the odds to call a single bet hoping to turn a 4 or a king. I was getting 18:1 on a 22.5:1 shot + 14.666:1 shot... what are my total odds for you statisticians out there? /images/graemlins/smile.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

You're making the odds calculation too complicated. You have 5 outs to improve your hand to two pair or trips. That's 42-5 or 8.4-1. That's a number I have memorized because it comes up so frequently.

--Zetack

[Warik]

You're right - but now that I think about it, the king of hearts was not clean because of the flush threat. So I only have 4 outs... the other two sixes and Kd + Kc. 47 - 4 = 43. 43:4 = 10.75:1. I still had the odds to continue - too bad my hand was no good. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[skunkworks]

Hand 1: I think you can check-fold the river unimproved. I think folding the turn would be a mistake since there are plenty of cards to fill you up. Good flop C/R, but it's tough to get folds at .50-1.

Hand 2: Calling PF is definitely okay if you know how to stay out of trouble. This is right out of Majorkong's PF quiz post.

I don't like the 3-bet on the river... it's a tad overaggressive. Since the pot is so big, you'll end up going to showdown even if it gets capped. I think calling the raise is better.

[Ed Miller]

Hand 2: Calling PF is definitely okay if you know how to stay out of trouble. This is right out of Majorkong's PF quiz post.

No it's not. You have a weak suited King and UTG raised. There's no way I'd call, even in a real soft game. This is why Ulysses's idea about having another quiz where ten of the answers are to fold is a good idea. When I get a chance, I might do it...

[UTGunner]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1:

Button, UTG, and UTG+1 flip: [8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif], [7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif], and [5/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif] for the straights, 8-high taking the pot.

I wasn't trying to slowplay or give free cards. I was the SB in a 9-player flop and was certain that somebody would bet the flop. I was check-raising for value. I should probably have folded the turn instead of calling two cold since it would be very unlikely that one of these uber-fish didn't have a 2 or a 7 in this 6-way hand.



[/ QUOTE ]
I would never fold the turn with the fullhouse draw. Easy fold on river though.

[skunkworks]

[ QUOTE ]
No it's not. You have a weak suited King and UTG raised. There's no way I'd call, even in a real soft game. This is why Ulysses's idea about having another quiz where ten of the answers are to fold is a good idea. When I get a chance, I might do it...

[/ QUOTE ]


Would it be any different if he were MP1 or UTG+1? Where do you start to respect his raise as likely being a powerful starting hand? Would it make a difference if this were K8s?