new pot-limit player seeking advice

[orbie]

I've recently discovered the incrediable game of pot limit hold'em. I've only played once live and it's ruined me for limit hold'em.

My questions are:

1. what quality books are out there for pot limit?

2. where can I practice pot limit with out breaking the bankroll? is online play going to hurt my game?

3. any advice I can take to the table prior to purchasing recommended books?

Thanks for any advice and suggestions.

-- Orbie

[orbie]

oh, and one other thing? I've heard people mention" the gap concept" what is this?

[Scottnyce]

I would like to hear any advice on this as well......

[Nero]

All of party pokers PL games are very soft and a good place to get your feet wet. play as to what your willing to lose, I keep a 40 buy-in BR on party for NL/PL but this is overly cautious and i know many that use 5-10 buyin bank rolls.

As for play starting out. Play Tight, Very Tight. General guidelines(pre-flop): Until your get a feel for the game i would only limp in with Ax(suited) and pocket pairs below QQ. AA,KK,QQ,AK should be raised and re-raised pre-flop. Also raise AQ(not re-raise,fold to a raise)in LP. Basically, until you get a handle for the game you want raising to be or folding.

(post flop): If I was the raiser pre-flop I most likely bet until I meet resistance, then re-evaluate the situation. Ax & smaller pocket pairs should bet folded unless improved to a set or draw to the nut-flush, be very careful when Ax makes only a pair of Aces.

This advice is very basic and very predictable, but predicatabitlity isnt a concern at PP 25&50 tables. Once you have some experience under your belt you can open up your hand selection greatly(suited connectors,ect.), as you will have hopefully learned how to get away from these hands when they are second best.

Any finally and most importantly in my opinion, play your strong hands fast. Bet your made hands hard, betting too small, trapping and trying to get tricky usually backfire on beginning players.

Good Luck, hope i was of some help.

[jakuda]

[ QUOTE ]
.
1. what quality books are out there for pot limit?
2. where can I practice pot limit with out breaking the bankroll? is online play going to hurt my game?
3. any advice I can take to the table prior to purchasing recommended books?

[/ QUOTE ]
1. PL/NL Poker by Ciaffone and Reuben. This is a good book t hat covers all forms of big bet poker not just holdem. People might think the instruction is slim, but the biggest things you learn about is how your stack size affects your play. It is not a "if A, then do B" type of book. I wouldn't want one like that anyways.
SuperSystem is another classic. This has more situational instruction, but tends to be a bit more aggressive than necessary. Still a good manual.
TJ/McEvoys championship PL/NL Holdem is okay. It's geared more towards tourney play but the price isn't worth it.

overstock.com is a great place to get your poker books by the way. Way cheaper than Amazon.com (usually)

2. PartyPoker has a lot of PLHE games. Most other places have very few PL games going. Also lowbuyin ($25) PL/NL games are really soft there.

3. Top pair, top kicker isn't that good. Really. But at PartyPoker your opponents will make more mistakes than you would imagine, so you'll do fine. Also, in general, always bet and raise the size of the pot (unless you want them to call you on the river).

[jakuda]

[ QUOTE ]
oh, and one other thing? I've heard people mention" the gap concept" what is this?

[/ QUOTE ]

As a limit player you intuitively know this already. If someone opens the pot for a raise preflop, you need a better hand to call than you would if you opened the pot for a raise yourself. Easy example:You could consider opening the pot for a raise preflop with AQo if everyone folded to you, but if an early position player raised to 3-4x BigBlinds, and everyone folds to you in the middle or late and you hold AQo, calling would be borderline.

Gap Concept as Sklansky wrote in tournament poker is important. So if someone stack size is big, his "gap" shrinks. Same if someone is short stacked.

[jakuda]

[ QUOTE ]
............snip
As for play starting out. Play Tight, Very Tight. General guidelines(pre-flop): Until your get a feel for the game i would only limp in with Ax(suited) and pocket pairs below QQ. AA,KK,QQ,AK should be raised and re-raised pre-flop. Also raise AQ(not re-raise,fold to a raise)in LP. Basically, until you get a handle for the game you want raising to be or folding............snip


[/ QUOTE ]

Limp with low suited Ace like a2, a3, a4, maybe a5 in late position. I wouldn't limp in early or early-middle with any suited ace. Those can get you in trouble. It is uncomfortable to play a draw in early position if you catch some of the flop. You most always would like position when you're drawing. I would muck suited a6, a7, a8, a9 early->middle. Suited AT is trash early. And very, very borderline middle-late. I would muck if he's just starting b/c he could lose his stack if he finds it hard to release top pair.

[Nero]

[ QUOTE ]
Limp with low suited Ace like a2, a3, a4, maybe a5 in late position. I wouldn't limp in early or early-middle with any suited ace. Those can get you in trouble. It is uncomfortable to play a draw in early position if you catch some of the flop. You most always would like position when you're drawing. I would muck suited a6, a7, a8, a9 early->middle. Suited AT is trash early. And very, very borderline middle-late. I would muck if he's just starting b/c he could lose his stack if he finds it hard to release top pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point, maybe I should have emphasized more the trouble with playing weak aces as they are a big problem. In passive games where it it usually unraised pre-flop suited aces should be played from any position. Hand that are tough to play out of position are those that don't draw to the nuts. If i dont flop 2 pair or a 4 flush, my hand typically finds the muck.

[turnipmonster]

as others have said, ciaffone/reuben is as good as it gets.

read the forums here, and make sure you read everything that matt flynn and greg raymer write.

also, read the old "high stakes" digests (in older archives) here on twoplustwo. pay particular attention to posts by ray zee, natedogg, tommy angelo, and russell rosenblum.

I have played quite a bit of online and live NL/PL. my live PL games play *very* different from online games, and some of the things I do online would get me broke very quickly playing live. in general, the live PL games I play are much tougher than online.

my best advice to you is to play in the game you want to learn. if there is a local 5-5 blinds PL game you want to play in, then sit down when you think it is soft. play a short stack, and play very tight. the first skill you should learn is how to identify the really good players, and then watch what they do and try and figure out why. in PL, everything is a function of stack size, so it is a variable you always need to take into consideration (your own as well as your opponents). take your time and make careful decisions, and don't be afraid to make a big fold.

keep in mind that, in most PL games, people are not going to be calling you down with top pair and a bad kicker and other such limit nonsense. your profit will probably(hopefully) come from people misplaying their draws and misreading you. this is why you need to avoid playing pots with very good players while you are learning (unless you have the nuts). good players will test you constantly, and will often outplay you, so it's better just not to get involved with marginal holdings.

btw, the "gap concept" is basically that you need a way better hand to call a raise with than you do to raise yourself. while you might raise yourself with something like AQo, calling raises with hands like that will get you broke.

--turnipmonster

[orbie]

Thanks everyone for the helpful insite.

I have been watching the good PL players in my area. I've watched at times for hours. I have picked up on certian betting patterns with some players. I know who I wouldn't want to go heads up with and who will shoot at a runner-runner with no odds.

Unfortunately I can't sit at that PL table with my current bankroll. So I've been seeking out people with intrest in a $100 buy-in PL with $1/$2 blinds.

I quess I did know about the gap concept. I use it in tournaments, but in limit I usually get the odds to see a flop.

Any further leads on my quest for PL knowledge is greatly appreciated.

---Orbie-----

[turnipmonster]

what are the blinds in the game you watch? what are the average stacks? just curious. my local game is 5-5 with stacks between 500 and 2k on average.

[orbie]

turnipmonster-

5-10 blinds. 500-2k stacks.