pre flop stradegy, pot manipulation...am I on the right track? (KK)

[Alobar]

typical table, everyone is a little on the loose side, no one has stood out with either bad or good play.

My question is on my preflop choice, here is the hand. My thinking is below

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.stompandcrush.com/cgi-bin/hhparser.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB raises, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (10 SB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, MP2 folds, Button folds, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls.

River: (11 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 13 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 13 BB, between UTG+1 and Hero.</font>

I didn't 3 bet pre flop because I was pretty sure it wouldn't knock anyone out and it would tip my hand off and then I've made the pot big enough to give people odds to chase with bottom pair and other such junk. So I figured if I just called, I can raise the flop when the SB bets out and hopfully knock people out then. Good idea, or bad idea?

[Tosh]

No 3 bet preflop.

[lil']

You'll get in trouble for this, probably. The one thing I would ask is, why do you want to knock people out here? Don't you want them to call two bets cold with their dominated hands?

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
typical table, everyone is a little on the loose side, no one has stood out with either bad or good play.

My question is on my preflop choice, here is the hand. My thinking is below

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.stompandcrush.com/cgi-bin/hhparser.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB raises, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (10 SB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, MP2 folds, Button folds, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls.

River: (11 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 13 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 13 BB, between UTG+1 and Hero.</font>

I didn't 3 bet pre flop because I was pretty sure it wouldn't knock anyone out and it would tip my hand off and then I've made the pot big enough to give people odds to chase with bottom pair and other such junk. So I figured if I just called, I can raise the flop when the SB bets out and hopfully knock people out then. Good idea, or bad idea?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're giving up too much equity before the flop. A better approach to pot/odds manipulation might be to do something like call the SB's bet blind if he bets into you on the flop, then raise it up on the turn if bets into you again. But I'm raising before the flop.

[sthief09]

You lost 5 SB by not raising pre-flop. A raised, 5-way pot is so big that any call on the flop will be mathematically correct. You called just to manipulate the pot odds, but the pot is so big there's just no way of manipulating it. This just doesn't many any sense.

[Joe Tall]

I didn't 3 bet pre flop because I was pretty sure it wouldn't knock anyone out

Why do you want to knock anyone out?

it would tip my hand off

Ok, which is it? You want them to fold, or call?

I've made the pot big enough to give people odds to chase with bottom pair and other such junk

You're giving up too much preflop equity to make this up post flop.

3-bet.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[mike_wzrd]

[ QUOTE ]
The one thing I would ask is, why do you want to knock people out here? Don't you want them to call two bets cold with their dominated hands?


[/ QUOTE ]

The post says that he was pretty sure he wouldn't knock people out.
[ QUOTE ]
I didn't 3 bet pre flop because I was pretty sure it wouldn't knock anyone out and it would tip my hand off

[/ QUOTE ]

I've played against players that I knew would call in this situation. So he should raise.

[Senor Choppy]

The problem with pot manipulation is, because of the fine line between hands you want to call and hands you don't, it's really difficult to know whether you want someone to call without knowing their exact holding. If you misread someone as have a flush draw when they actually have a weak pair, and you knock them out when they're drawing dead that's a huge mistake. Or if someone with the chance to beat you is given a free or cheap card that they wouldn't have gotten had you played your hand straight up, that can be equally disastrous.

In the hand in question, you sacrificed 2 small bets (1 preflop, and 1 on the flop) for this. If the turn is checked around, you lose another 1bb for 2 total, AND you've given your opponents a free shot to beat you with 2 cards to broadway, a two, or a four. And all to try and manipulate the size of the pot and the action that each player faces, which I don't think even the best players are capable of doing with worthwhile results.

It's almost always better to play these hands in a straightforward manner, the low limit players are generally unpredictable as a rule, which makes pulling off something like this sort of play next to impossible.

[Nottom]

You know how some people like to limp reraise with KK because they want to get lots of money in the pot? Well you were just handed the opportunty to accomplish the same thing with no risk of it being limped around.

You're not trying to knock people out here, you want to get money in because you have the best hand. If people want to chase 5 outers after the flop, good for them ... you make money then as well.

[JTG51]

I had a feeling the answer was going to be 'No' after just reading the subject line. It is.

Forget about manipulating the size of the pot in games full of truly terrible players. Just get your money in when you have the best of it (like with KK before the flop).

[RydenStoompala]

KK bets 'til it's capped pre-flop. The little pairs and draws are not the only people getting better odds. So are you. The trips raise the flop as well.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
Forget about manipulating the size of the pot in games full of truly terrible players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like to manipulate the size of the pot- but only to make it bigger when I've got the best hand. That's my theory of pot size manipulation.

This hand is a great example of a studious player trying to run before he can walk.