Isolation wars (and casualties)

[legend42]

Sorry about the length of this, it just kept going. 15/30 Party table, pretty tight, except for one huge calling station fish two seats to my right, who everybody at the table is trying to target.

On this hand, I'm in the SB with JJ. An aggressive LP open raises in front of the fish (is there such a thing as a preemptive isolation raise?). Fish naturally calls, and the button 3-bets (damn you guys, will you just leave and let me take my jacks up against him?).

I cap preflop from the SB with my JJ, not respecting either previous raise too much, and hoping in vain to eliminate the initial LP raiser. Alas, all call the cap.

<font color="blue">Flop: Q 2 3 (2 spades)</font>

I bet out, LP raises (this is an obvious isolation move hoping to drive the button out, and banking that the flop missed me; guess what, clown? I don‘t even need the board), fish coldcalls (what else?), and button 3-bets (this guy‘s gonna isolate if it kills him). Back to me for $30. Now if the button really had a monster, wouldn’t he wait for the turn to jam? Also, these two guys- LP and button- have battled in a lot of pots, with and without others involved, and they like to make crazy, aggressive moves on each other, then slow down on later streets. The button’s worried I might actually have a hand, and wants me out.

I believe I’m still best, and decide I’m gonna call this hand down, and drag a beast of a pot. LP and fish just call also. Hah, thought so. I got these guys.

<font color="blue">Turn is a red ten.</font>

I check (but with a great deal of confidence), LP bets (maybe skippy just hit his ten; fantastic, but it’s worthless), fish does what fish do and calls (wait a minute, I was planning on just calling, too- does that make me a... okay, I don‘t have time for this self doubt, stay confident), button raises again. Jesus! Okay, maybe I’ve been too focused on the isolation angle here. These guys might have real hands. LP is representing QT for all the world, and is pounding with it here in case the button was going for a free card with the flop raise, except now that the button has raised the turn behind, it looks like he might just have the aces, or even a set of queens, at least AQ. I’m not gonna pay $60 cold, and maybe another $30 or $60 before the betting is closed, to chase a 2-outer that might not even be good. Dump it.

I fold and wince slightly as the LP just smooth calls. Fish, in one of the five most predictable moves in the history of poker, also calls.

<font color="blue">River pairs the deuce on board (no flush)</font>

LP bets again (but even online, you can sense a certain lack of spirit this time), fish calls, button waits and waits and finally, (sigh) calls.


So, what are the hands? Ahh, forget the suspense:

LP had pocket 8s
Fish had JT
Button showed the A3 of spades

Fish wins a $650 pot. I have some postmortem thoughts about this one, but I've already wasted enough bandwith. Of course, any advice or input is welcome.

[SA125]

"Also, these two guys- LP and button- have battled in a lot of pots, with and without others involved, and they like to make crazy, aggressive moves on each other, then slow down on later streets."

"I'm not gonna pay $60 cold, and maybe another $30 or $60 before the betting is closed, to chase a 2-outer that might not even be good. Dump it. I fold and wince slightly as the LP just smooth calls."

You had them all beat and flew the coop to only one overcard. But it looks like the fish was actually a fly in the ointment for them.

Is that really a ... black helicopter?

[rory]

On the flop, why do you abandon your read. If you think your hand is good at this point, you want to cap it and come out betting on the turn. The worst thing you could have done was call and then check the turn, showing weakness. Now you are encouraging these guys to bet you off your hand. Dump it or pump it on the flop.

-rory

[Nightwish]

Are the LP raiser and the button maniacs? If so, I can understand your call pre-flop. Otherwise, it's an easy fold pre-flop.

[Vehn]

Did you read the post at all? Folding JJ here is insane.

[Zele]

A good case can be made for folding pre-flop. Indeed, it's likely you have the best hand, but any overcard very likely kills your hand, and there are 12 of those you haven't seen. Against 3 players, especially out of position, JJ can be big trouble. Anyway I wouldn't cap. If you play, call and hope for a set. If you just end up with an overpair, try to thin the field somehow, even if it means waiting for the turn to do so. If an overcard comes, you're basically cooked.

I can't stand calling the flop raise. For one bet, sure. Hey, you're getting paid to take off the turn in hopes of a third J. But not only are you getting charged to draw, this is a real raise. Sure, if he had QQ in the pocket he might slowplay, but with AQ he's an idiot is he does. Most of the time, this raise means you're beat. Even if it doesn't (which, with the benefit of the results, we know it doesn't), you have to be very worried about being outdrawn. There are 8 cards unseen which leave you almost hopeless (the As and the Ks), and there are 7 others which are flush outs.

Bottom line: there's no use bringing a knife to a gunfight. Live to fight another day.

[Zele]

Would you fold TT? If not, how low a pocket pair would you play here?

Edit: I'm not saying I'd fold here. I just wouldn't cap and I don't think folding is insane at all.

[hutz]

You might want to re-read the intro to the post again. It is pretty clear that the more observant players were raising light in order to isolate the horrible player. It's exceedingly likely that a pair of jacks is the best pre-flop hand in this situation.

[Nightwish]

Please explain why folding here is insane. The LP raiser can have a variety of hands. The button is clearly going for an isolation move, but are you really going to call 2.5 bets cold or even cap knowing that you'll be out of position for the rest of the hand and that A, K, or Q on the flop make it VERY difficult for you to play this hand? Perhaps I shouldn't have said that it's an easy fold, but I think folding here should be seriously considered. If these players are as aggressive as the original poster implied, he'll get another chance.

On the other hand, I would certainly at least call here with QQ (and likely cap). It's just that JJ is not strong enough....

[legend42]

[ QUOTE ]
Would you fold TT? If not, how low a pocket pair would you play here?

Edit: I'm not saying I'd fold here. I just wouldn't cap and I don't think folding is insane at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I didn't accurately portray the cutoff as the clueless, world-class fish that he was. And he was the aggressive player's favorite type of fish: the check-call, check-call, check-fold type of fish. Naturally, he had made some incredible suckouts, which made him even more of a target for some. On one hand, he called a turn bet into a KK88 board with pocket 3s- and won! Get the idea?

So the button had been isolating often, but not recklessly so (any pair, any ace, any two Broadway cards, etc.), and if you came over the top of his isolation raise, he'd usually get out of the way on the flop.

So basically, I was pretty sure my jacks were best before the flop, and even after the flop. But all the action on the turn snapped me back into reality when, as it turns out, I should have stayed in fantasy land. Oh well.

[stripsqueez]

i find this table scenario to be common in the short handed games i play - i hate being too tight but my response is to tighten up considerably when isolating - where there is ink there are squid - isolating the bad guy is a dangerous thing when everybody is doing it and everybody knows everybody is doing it

i folded on the turn too as i read your post - i like capping the flop and betting out - fold or raise strikes again

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[legend42]

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop, why do you abandon your read. If you think your hand is good at this point, you want to cap it and come out betting on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right. I was just hard for me to keep my foot on the pedal with just second pair after all that playback on the flop. What I was hoping for was not to get into a war with a moderate hand, but simply to look them up, sensing they were both overplaying, trying to push each other (and me) off their hands.

I would have gladly called a turn bet and a river bet-as long as an ace didn't hit the board- even an overcall with all three players still in. But when it came back for $60 to me, I abandoned my read. And I actually don't feel that bad about it. Any one of those players could have easily had a queen, and played the same way.

[legend42]

[ QUOTE ]
Please explain why folding here is insane. The LP raiser can have a variety of hands.

On the other hand, I would certainly at least call here with QQ (and likely cap). It's just that JJ is not strong enough....

[/ QUOTE ]

You have a point. To be honest, I never considered folding preflop. I hadn't been out of line at this table. I hadn't even taken full advantage of my fish+2 position; I prefer to isolate 'maniac' fish rather than 'calling station' fish, as I trap better than I pound. So I thought my 3-bet preflop would get more respect than it did.

My first thought afterward was, how could they have overplayed their hands like that? But it all sort of makes sense in hindsight. LP is praying I capped preflop with AK (and it looks like that’s possible from the way I played it), and hoping that the button is pushing with a flush draw (which he is, with added outs). The fish will be calling with even a 2 or 3, or a baby flush or straight draw or practically anything, so his calls aren’t too worrisome. He thought he might be value betting.

Meanwhile, the button's logic might have been that both his draw and the pot were big enough that he was just going to go balls to the wall and hopefully be the last man standing. It is amazing how many of these gigantic multiway pots wind up going uncalled at the end.

The thing that bugs me is, I basically made this read while I was still in the pot. But I panicked at the thought of just calling this hand down, when I didn’t know how expensive it was going to be, or if I even had any outs.

[Bartholow]

Given the aggression that was shown by these players, I can't see folding ANY pair preflop really. If you hit a set you will make plenty. However, I would not cap JJ here, and would consider check-folding the flop. (As it turns out this would also be a disaster but... so be it)