Commerce 30-60 Check-raise to get a free card

[ZeroGee]

(I believe it was) Josh W's post last week made me think about getting that free card with a check-raise from early position. I didn't even have to be super dramatic, as he was.

I'm in the BB with A5 spades. Limper, then a raise, then a button coldcall, SB calls, I call, limper calls.

Flop is 8s 7s 4h. I check, limper checks, PFR bets, button calls, SB folds, I _raise_ (calmly), limper coldcalls, PFR calls, button folds.

Turn, Jd. Not what I wanted.

I'm first to act. I check. Very calmly. Check check.

River, Jh. Still no help. I check, check, PFR says, "You must be on a draw. I bet." We all fold.

Afterwards, she says, "Why did you check-raise on a draw? You were out of position."

I said, "I wanted a free card."

She said, "What do you mean? You were out of position! How were you going to get a free card?" Then she thought for a minute, and realized I got a free card.

"Exactly," I said.

People fear the double-check-raise.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
(I believe it was) Josh W's post last week made me think about getting that free card with a check-raise from early position. I didn't even have to be super dramatic, as he was.

I'm in the BB with A5 spades. Limper, then a raise, then a button coldcall, SB calls, I call, limper calls.

Flop is 8s 7s 4h. I check, limper checks, PFR bets, button calls, SB folds, I _raise_ (calmly), limper coldcalls, PFR calls, button folds.

Turn, Jd. Not what I wanted.

I'm first to act. I check. Very calmly. Check check.

River, Jh. Still no help. I check, check, PFR says, "You must be on a draw. I bet." We all fold.

Afterwards, she says, "Why did you check-raise on a draw? You were out of position."

I said, "I wanted a free card."

She said, "What do you mean? You were out of position! How were you going to get a free card?" Then she thought for a minute, and realized I got a free card.

"Exactly," I said.

People fear the double-check-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe it's just me, but I'm not sure that I wouldn't continue to bet on the turn.

The pot is not small. The limper sure as heck looks like he's on a draw, perhaps a lesser flush draw, in which case he might bow out without too much of a fight on the river. The preflop rasier ... she didn't bump you back on the flop. It wouldn't be out of the question for her to fold something like A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif for an expensive bet on the turn against a possible made hand, now would it?

And that's it. There are only two opponents. You're representing a hand. The pot is pretty darn big. You're getting close to par on the bet strictly from an immediate odds perspective with ... let me see ... at least 12 and optimistically as many as 15 outs? How often would the bet have to induce a fold in order to render it profitable? I could see you taking this pot down without a showdown as often as 1/3 of the time.

[ZeroGee]

Good thoughts in theory.

But in my experience of playing that game for the past 3 months, you don't get a fold anywhere near 1/3rd the time. More likely 1/8th the time. People with AK will call you down hoping you were bluffing, check-raise or not. It's 3-6 with $1 chips. Just like the 40-80 is 4-8 with $1 chips. Playing regularly out in LA (whereas I used to always play in Vegas) makes me wonder why anyone would ever play anywhere else.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Good thoughts in theory.

But in my experience of playing that game for the past 3 months, you don't get a fold anywhere near 1/3rd the time. More likely 1/8th the time. People with AK will call you down hoping you were bluffing, check-raise or not. It's 3-6 with $1 chips. Just like the 40-80 is 4-8 with $1 chips. Playing regularly out in LA (whereas I used to always play in Vegas) makes me wonder why anyone would ever play anywhere else.

[/ QUOTE ]

98% of my hands are played online (*), so that's my perspective. I don't have a good sense for whether or not Cali B&M players are more likely to release hands, and I certainly respect your own read on your own game texture.

The funny thing is, though, I recently decided that I was giving up too easily on too many of my bluffs and semibluffs, especially when, by some miracle of miracles, I have a tight table image. Even 1/8 equity might be enough to make the play worthwhile, considering all your other outs.

(*) Trip to AC forthcoming soon.

[J_V]

Anyone can get a free card when the opposition doesn't have much. You have to be dramatic to get the freebie when they have a very good hand. On my last commerce trip I got someone to check 3 Q's last to act on the turn.

You should've be the turn on this hand.

[andyfox]

My experience in the 30-60 at Commerce is just the opposite. That is, people fear a call on the flop followed by a check on the turn more than they do a check-raise on the flop followed by a check on the turn. The check-raise followed by a check screams "draw." Many players, OTOH, will just call a flop bet and then look to check-raise the turn with a good holding.

[elysium]

hi zero
i meant to respond to this earlier. check-raising from first for a free-card....hmmmmm.

it's not a bad idea zero. what you need to do though, is look at this from the reverse angle. should you check-raise from first with a made hand to make your opponent pay the fullest to draw out on you? the answer of course is only if he bets his draws, otherwise you give a free-card.

when you check-raise in this situation from first zero, you are making a check-raise semi-bluff. all of the conditions required for assuming that your check-raise for the free-card will work, will also make it correct to check-raise semi-bluff, the better of the two plays. if your check-raise will work to keep your opponent from betting, after check-raising you should bet-out because he will likely fold often enough to make betting out on the turn correct. so even if you knew that if you checked you would get a free-card, you should bet to pick up the pot.

the main idea zero is that because you lack information from the EP position, and therefore don't know whether you need a free-card or are giving one to a hand drawing dead, you cannot go for a free-card because if you could go for one from that position, you must bet to pick-up the pot. if you're raised or called, you have all the outs you need to call any raise or bet. and lastly, of course, you don't want to risk giving a free-card to a hand that is drawing dead, just like if you had a made hand and had check-raised semi-bluffed the flop, on the turn you would betout to stop the free-card.

if you had a small-suited connector, you aren't going to check-raise because now you might be drawing dead. so the very thing that makes check-raising an acceptable viable play, namely the nut draw, also makes allowing the free-card wrong. you would also bet out of course to drive out the weak ace that beats you in case you make top pair on the river.