Spewing chips on the turn

[Clarkmeister]

Alternatively titled, at what point do you give your opponent credit for a bigger set?

80-160. I have raised 3 hands in a row. Maybe 4. I open raise in MP with 8h8d. Average decent player coldcalls, Overaggressive preflop but generally savvy postflop player 3-bets from the CO. I have seen him 4-bet me with JTs (he lost to the initial raiser), and 3-bet others with KK and AQs (he won). Everyone else folds, me and ADP call.

Flop is 9c 8c 3d. Checked to CO who bets, I checkraise. ADP folds and CO 3-bets. I call.

Turn is Jh. I checkraise, he 3-bets for the 3rd consecutive street and I reflexively snap off a 4-bet.

Edited to add in my hand.

[Barry]

You've been 3-bet 3 streets in a row. If he didn't have you on the flop, I think that he got there on the turn. The way you described it, I think that you cursed yourself for your lightning fast reflexes this time.

Interesting that you didn't 4 bet the flop, but that seems to go along with the texture of this game of wanting to set the hook just a little harder for the later streets.

[andyfox]

"at what point do you give your opponent credit for a bigger set"

If he 5-bets me, or raises the river. It's also not impossible he has Ac-Jc, or Qc-Tc or an overpair. Maybe he'd have just called your flop check-raise with pocket 9s, hope the jack didn't hit him.

[Gabe]

"If he 5-bets me, or raises the river."

Yep.

[JimRivett]

Hello Dave,

Alternatively titled, at what point do you give your opponent credit for a bigger set?

If he raises you again on the turn.

I suspect, however, you may be ahead here, who knows, he may have J 10 again.

Jim

[AceHigh]

I think he might have read your flop check/raise for a hand that needs protecting like TT or A9s. So 4-betting is reasonable on the turn.

Online a 4-bet on the turn means business and usually the players slowdown on the river. Course, 4-bets is the capp online and we don't play 80-160.

[J_V]

In most games 40-80 and below you can expect some "gravy." Some loser drawing dead, fattening your pot or giving excess action with hands he should be on the big betting rounds. In my experience, as you hit 80/160 and up you don't get this as often and hence you must give plaeyrs more credit on the big betting rounds regardless of "deceptive" or unlikely their holding seems. Cuz they know what you're represting, instead of just evaluation their pretty cards, and they are saying they can beat it.

A perfect example is that AA hand.

[elysium]

hi clark
given the strength of your hand on that draw infested board, i think you should be betting out. you can't be sure that the CO won't take a free card here. while that doesn't necessarily beat you, it costs you bets that you could be getting in on the flop those times that you showdown the winner. the other factor is the liklihood of the bet coming from the CO. you don't like that a lot on the flop clark. now you only drive out hands that the MP would likely call one bet with, but isn't going to beat you. if he cold-calls, you don't love it as much as his calling one bet at a time. you have to bet the flop here clark.

i think you should bet out on the turn. you don't have the nuts, but check-raising forces you to call or raise a 3 bet, and also may have caused you to miss a 3 betting opportunity. you have heard the term sweet spot clark, haven't you? well, your check-raise puts you in a sour spot, unless you have the nuts.

yeah well, i see you 4 bet. you won't 3 bet a boat when i tell you, but you 4 bet this. ok.

well, you won. he's got the QQ or something. can i say it? you left bets on the table. i'm not even counting the 4 bet. that's a joke clark. if you were calling the 4 bet, then i count it as not leaving bets on the table. the fact is you knocked out a hand you were way ahead of but that would have called possibly two bets, and then you went for a back to back check-raise to make up for it, but in doing so you may have more than likely given up a 3 betting opportunity. did you risk perhaps picking up no bets on the turn for your crummy check-raise? yes. that too. clark i'm going to give you some constructive criticism now. you played this like a hippopotamus running loose in a dime store. you're trying to loose every which way you can, but the store is making more money selling tickets to watch you frolic around breaking barbies and plastic bracelets than it's losing with the merchandise your busting up. you apparently win this thing, but it's in spite of yourself here. if you would stop mashing in barbies boobs and just smile at the people, saving your check-raises for when they count, you make more money with less risk and less aggrivation. and who knows, you wind up with a nice soda pop float maybe too. as it is, you're chewing yarn here.

[J_V]

I hate rereading my posts. They never make any sense.

[mike l.]

yeah so what's the problem? he can 3 bet with an overpair here. big deal. if he 5 bets you can lapse into check-call. 4 bets is the right amount to put in on the turn here.

[Coilean]

I think the weakest hand CO can realistically put you on here after your turn check raise is an overpair, so his 3-bet is probably either something bigger or an attempt for a free showdown with a jack and a big draw at an overpair. I put him on AA/JJ/99 or AJ/KJ/QJ/QT/JT of clubs, maybe with lesser chances of a poorly played KK/QQ/TT. This puts you in the lead more often than behind (as usual when holding a set /images/graemlins/wink.gif), so I don't think you give him credit for a better hand yet, especially when he may have decided to play back at you with something goofy after noting your recent spat of preflop aggression.

[Clarkmeister]

OK, so it was boring. He called my 4 bet and called the river with AA.

[J_V]

continuing the thread with myself. I vote for reraise. Especially since you've been raising a lot lately.

[mike l.]

even i read his hand correctly so yeah that thread sucked. nice try with the subtitle though, i think most of us saw right through it.

surely you played an 80-160 hand poorly or at least less than great? why not go ahead and post that? how about some of those other times you raised preflop? was this at bellagio or at commerce?

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
even i read his hand correctly so yeah that thread sucked. nice try with the subtitle though, i think most of us saw right through it.

surely you played an 80-160 hand poorly or at least less than great? why not go ahead and post that? how about some of those other times you raised preflop? was this at bellagio or at commerce?




[/ QUOTE ]

Well I did post the hand where I got aces shoved up my ass.

It was at Bellagio.

[oddjob]

now you know how i feel when i read elysium's posts