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View Full Version : Worst WSOP final table play ever?


Daliman
03-15-2004, 01:19 AM
My nomination for this honor goes to the idiot who limped in in the SB w/ 63o vs barbara enright, then called Heads-up when she went allin from the BB with a middle pair(77?88?) for about 20x the blinds, and the moron called, and flopped 2 pair to knock out poor Barbara. Later, the player said, "I thought she was bluffing"

I just got a book on WSOP final hands, and MAN are ther some other UG-LEE ones, like a guy calling allin with 73h into a 89J board, one heart on flop, FOR THE TITLE and a few more that escape me at the moment.

Any other entries?
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Easy E
03-15-2004, 01:51 AM
I guess that disproves the theory that the WPT and Internet satellites have flooded the Series with idiots that didn't exist before.

youtalkfunny
03-15-2004, 04:34 AM
If you think Brent Carter is an "idiot", or a "moron", bring all the money you can find, and I'll stake him against you, AT ANY GAME. This guy has won best all-around player awards at tourneys like the Four Queens Classic. He's PLAYED at more final tables than you've WATCHED on tv.

I ran into Brent a few months ago. He was in Tunica for the JBWPO. We had only met a few times, none of them at the poker table, and I was flattered that he remembered me. I asked him about that hand, as it was the subject of discussion at another site. I was sure that the post on the other site had the facts wrong (like your post does), and I asked what he could recall about the hand (imagine someone asking you about a hand you played 10 years ago!)


"Boy, this story has really taken on a life of its own, there are so many versions out there...", he began.

"I had about T400,000. The blinds were T10,000 and T20,000. I limped in from the small blind, hoping to see a flop. She moved in for about T50,000 more. I figured she was probably just trying to pick up the pot, cuz that's the way she plays! So it's T50,000 to me, and there's her T50,000 out there..."

"And 40,000 in the middle," I added.

"No, 50,000 in the middle," he corrected.

"Oh, right, antes!"

"So I'm getting 2-to-1. And unless she has an overpair, she can't be a 2-to-1 favorite."

Left unsaid was the fact that he only needed to call about 1/8th of his stack, for a chance to knock her out, and move up a spot on the paychart (at the time, the largest paychart in the history of poker).

youtalkfunny
03-15-2004, 04:40 AM
BTW, if the 88's weren't held by a WOMAN, this would've been a very forgettable hand. It certainly wasn't a huge pot, like Ivey v Moneymaker. There is only one reason why this hand still gets mentioned today: half the world (the fairer half) was rooting for the same player, and they took a bad beat.

Toro
03-15-2004, 10:06 AM
The hand you cite was played at the final table???? Amazing that someone that clueless could make it to the final table in the WSOP.

Edit: Didn't read the other replies particularly the one giving all the details of the hand. Makes a lot more sense when put in context.

Daliman
03-15-2004, 11:46 AM
Ok, on the surface, what you say makes sense, however, taken at face value, this is still a HORRIBLE play, no matter HOW good a player he was/is. He risked 1/8th his stack on a hand that has about 163 of the possible preflop hands ahead of it. BAsically saying, " Here,if if you want 60k of my $$$, i'll put it in because i'm BARELY getting 2-1 and my hand is barely worth 2-1 IF you have no pair, whereas if you do, i'm anywhere from a 3-1 to a 5-1 dog". I'll say it again, MORONIC move. Maybe a great player, but creating your own pot odds and then calling with anything based on those is NOT good poker. If it were, i'd raise 1/4 my stack every hand, then call most any raise based on "well, IF he/she doesn't have a pair, i'm getting 2-1 odds" just plain wrong, even if the circumstances were as you say.

russian ace
03-15-2004, 12:00 PM
You are talking about Brent Carter, who is in no way an idot. He has had numerous final table finishes at prestigious events.

Daliman
03-15-2004, 01:24 PM
again, i dont care WHO he is. It's a terrible play under ANY circumstances.

Nottom
03-15-2004, 02:45 PM
The only problem I have with the hand (given the desrciption above is correct) is that I think he should have raised if he was planning on calling an all-in bet anyway.

oddjob
03-15-2004, 03:08 PM
maybe he was strong in using "idiot", but i agree taht this is a horrible play.

what you're essentially saying, by defending him, is never fold in your small blind, if it's half a bet, and never fold your big blind if it's double to you. also you're saying, that you never criticize professional athletes, because you aren't better then them.

if it had been a nobody player, that made that same call, for the exact same reasons, i think most people would have no problem criticizing his play, but since he's had a lot of success, he can't make a bad play?

get real

drewjustdrew
03-15-2004, 03:10 PM
[ QUOTE ]
i'd raise 1/4 my stack every hand, then call most any raise based on "well, IF he/she doesn't have a pair, i'm getting 2-1 odds" just plain wrong, even if the circumstances were as you say.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying I would make the same play as Brent, but there is a big difference between his hand and your proposed new system. He was not in danger of being eliminated at any point in the hand.

Daliman
03-15-2004, 03:29 PM
EXACTLY!

J.R.
03-15-2004, 03:35 PM
I'm sure Kevin McBride had some real beauties as well.

youtalkfunny
03-15-2004, 03:41 PM
[ QUOTE ]
...this is still a HORRIBLE play...BAsically saying, " Here,if if you want 60k of my $$$, i'll put it in because i'm BARELY getting 2-1 and my hand is barely worth 2-1 IF you have no pair, whereas if you do, i'm anywhere from a 3-1 to a 5-1 dog". I'll say it again, MORONIC move.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your math does not take into account the value of tournament chips. If you're a 5-1 dog (you're highest number), but you're getting 8-1 odds (1/8 of your stack for all of hers), PLUS pot odds, you're making a good call.

Right?

youtalkfunny
03-15-2004, 03:51 PM
[ QUOTE ]
...also you're saying, that you never criticize professional athletes, because you aren't better then them.


[/ QUOTE ]

You can criticize pro athletes...if you know what you're talking about.

But most fans don't. They haven't played at that level. They played in the schoolyard, and think they're watching the same game.

Ever see a receiver drop what looks like an easy catch? Hits him right in the hands, and he can't hang on. Joe Sixpack leaps off his couch and screams, "I could've caught that ball!"

Joe Sixpack has never ATTEMPTED to catch a football without watching it travel from the thrower's hands. Joe is pretty good at catching balls that he can see coming from a mile away.

Joe has never run a route, turned to look for a ball that was thrown five seconds earlier.

Joe has never been covered by an All-Pro cornerback.

Joe thinks catching a ball is easy.

Joe never played poker with people who would move in their entire stack with K2 offsuit.

BTW, if Barbara had K2os, she would lose to 63os 42% of the time. But some here would still say 63 shouldn't call, because it wasn't the best hand.

There's more to catching a football than meets the eye.

There's more to poker than folding if you don't have the best hand.

oddjob
03-15-2004, 04:42 PM
1st off, sports is an industry of entertainment. in any industry of entertainment. anyone who has contributed any $$$ amount to this industry has a right to criticize a player. doesn't mean they're right. we dont' get paid millions to catch a ball. the receiver does. so if he's getting paid the big bucks to catch a ball, what better way to judge his worth then if he does his job well. if he catches teh ball, he's doing a good job. if he drops it... bad job. btw, this is so far off the point anyways, i don't know why i'm argueing.

2nd, there is also a difference in performance and decisions. i see this more of a fan criticizing a coaches decision to run the ball when it's 4th and 30, or leaving in a pitcher who's gone 8 innings, and his fatigue is effecting his performance. couch can come back and say, hey they were expecting the pass.

to use a different analogy, to take from your attitude, if you don't know how to play a musical instrument, you can never criticize any music ever made.

sorry, still not buying it.

Daliman
03-15-2004, 05:14 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...this is still a HORRIBLE play...BAsically saying, " Here,if if you want 60k of my $$$, i'll put it in because i'm BARELY getting 2-1 and my hand is barely worth 2-1 IF you have no pair, whereas if you do, i'm anywhere from a 3-1 to a 5-1 dog". I'll say it again, MORONIC move.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your math does not take into account the value of tournament chips. If you're a 5-1 dog (you're highest number), but you're getting 8-1 odds (1/8 of your stack for all of hers), PLUS pot odds, you're making a good call.

Right?

[/ QUOTE ]

what?
WAY wrong. How do you figure 8-1 odds here? My math DOES take into account the value of tourney chips, and he was only getting 2-1 odds. He's throwing off 60k of his stack on a hand he can't POSSIBLY have any edge in. No offense, but maybe you're tournament poker understanding is lacking a bit here.

Daliman
03-15-2004, 05:19 PM
Mcbride actually had a great play against Nguyen, WHere he went allin and got up from the table and went into the bathroon for 5-10 minutes while scotty wasa thinking. Then Scotty, (arrogantly, of course), said, If i read you right, it's all over" and he read him WAY wrong, and Mcbride had the chip lead. Nguyen of course was a far better player, and McBride, while acquiting himself very well for someone who i heaad was a tournament novice at the time, eventually succumbed on the end, playing the board of 88899 to scottys T9( i think, I know Scotty, had a 9 is the point)

SossMan
03-15-2004, 11:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
WAY wrong. How do you figure 8-1 odds here? My math DOES take into account the value of tourney chips, and he was only getting 2-1 odds. He's throwing off 60k of his stack on a hand he can't POSSIBLY have any edge in. No offense, but maybe you're tournament poker understanding is lacking a bit here.


[/ QUOTE ]

No offense to you, DaliMan, but perhaps YOUR tournament poker understanding is lacking. If you fold ANY two cards here, it's a mistake. You should read some our posts in the tournament forum about the difference between chipEV and actual $EV. Early in a tournament, they are essentially the same...at a final table, they can sometimes be drastically different. Unless she shows you a pair that matches your highest card (i.e. 88 vs. 83o) you cannot fold. This is without even knowing important factors such as relative stack sizes, # of players left, skill of other players, when blinds/antes will increase, prize structure, etc...

The mistake would come when calculating Tchip pot odds of, say, 3:1, and folding because you probably only have 2:1. It's grossly oversimplified. It's an easy call for any knowledgable tourney player.

Bill Murphy
03-15-2004, 11:32 PM
Wrong time, wrong place, wrong opponent, etc, etc. Just horrendous; I don't care that Furlong only had A3.

Huck had just doubled up, Furlong had a monster stack and even larger "meta" EV. Oh yeah, Noel also had position. I met Noel & Padraig Parkinson the following year and they told me thay had talked after Day 3 that Huck would try something just like that and Noel would snap him off w/A rag.

As for Brent Carter & Enright, yeah 63 sucks, but Babs had no chips, and Brent always got lucky against her, which she said in the interview.

Daliman
03-16-2004, 01:02 AM
I completely disagree. The limp was the main problem, creating the odds. Believe me, i understand tourney poker. I understand WHY he called after, but that doesn't make it a good call even IF he's getti ng proper odds, which was not only unlikely, HE WASN'T. I understand also barbara's image was just as much to blame, but risking 60k heads up to win 60 k w/ 63o is, again, never right under there circumstances.

Daliman
03-16-2004, 01:31 AM
yeah, but at least he went allin first, not limp and call. Doesn't make it much better, but some.

youtalkfunny
03-16-2004, 04:46 AM
[ QUOTE ]
to use a different analogy, to take from your attitude, if you don't know how to play a musical instrument, you can never criticize any music ever made.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, now that you mention it, I don't play an instrument.

And I've never criticized any music ever made.

I have my likes and dislikes, but I'm way too ignorant to call anything "good" or "bad".

Really.

Mason Malmuth
03-16-2004, 05:02 AM
Hi Daliman:

I remember the hand quite differently. Since my good friend Dan Harrington was second in chips at the final table I went down to watch. (Dan did win the tournament.)

The way I remember the hand was that Enright raised from utg with a pair of eights. She was also very low on chips. It was then folded to Brent Carter in the big blind who had a fair amount of chips. At this point, many good tournament players would call with any two cards. This is especially true since with the big blind coming up the next hand, Enright might feel forced to raise all-in with a very weak hand, but one that would be a little better than a random hand.

Best wishes,
Mason

Daliman
03-16-2004, 06:25 AM
While i would agree with the "call w/ any two cards" theory here(although, this IS bottom of the barrel), i've seen 3 different accounts that all say he limped in from Sb, and she went allin from the BB. I'm not doubting your memory, but the blind battle seems to be the only thing NOT in dispute here. In an interview w/ dana smith, enright herself gave the version i shared, for what it's worth.

SossMan
03-16-2004, 06:54 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The limp was the main problem, creating the odds.

[/ QUOTE ]
A limp on the button w/ 63o is probably debatable. It definitely doesn't qualify for the "worst WSOP hand ever" thread.

[ QUOTE ]
I understand WHY he called after, but that doesn't make it a good call even IF he's getting proper odds, which was not only unlikely, HE WASN'T.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
but risking 60k heads up to win 60 k w/ 63o is, again, never right under there circumstances.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you read mine or Mason's post...that's not the point.
T60,000 does not = $60,000. That's the point. To really do the math, we would need all of the information that I put in my original post (other players chip stacks, relative position, prize money, etc...)
I suspect, however, that there would have to be some very, very strange circumstances to make this a fold (given the limp, which I concede, is debatable)


[ QUOTE ]
Believe me, i understand tourney poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
but risking 60k heads up to win 60 k w/ 63o is, again, never right under there circumstances.


[/ QUOTE ]
I think these two statements are contradictory.

Tyler Durden
03-16-2004, 07:16 PM
I don't know the exact details but in the 2002 WSOP he called Robert Varkonyi's all-in JJ button raise with AJ in his SB.

Shipley had the chip lead when final table play started but finished seventh. He had over T2 million in chips. His closest competitor had less than a million. Ouch.

Daliman
03-16-2004, 09:23 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The limp was the main problem, creating the odds.

[/ QUOTE ]
A limp on the button w/ 63o is probably debatable. It definitely doesn't qualify for the "worst WSOP hand ever" thread.

[ QUOTE ]
I understand WHY he called after, but that doesn't make it a good call even IF he's getting proper odds, which was not only unlikely, HE WASN'T.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
but risking 60k heads up to win 60 k w/ 63o is, again, never right under there circumstances.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you read mine or Mason's post...that's not the point.
T60,000 does not = $60,000. That's the point. To really do the math, we would need all of the information that I put in my original post (other players chip stacks, relative position, prize money, etc...)
I suspect, however, that there would have to be some very, very strange circumstances to make this a fold (given the limp, which I concede, is debatable)


[ QUOTE ]
Believe me, i understand tourney poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
but risking 60k heads up to win 60 k w/ 63o is, again, never right under there circumstances.


[/ QUOTE ]
I think these two statements are contradictory.


[/ QUOTE ]

LOL! The POINT is, every chip is valuable, ESPECIALLY AT THESE LEVELS. This crap about "chips change value, yadda yadda, has ZERO bearing on the subject at hand. HE RISKED 1/8TH HIS STACK ON 63OFFSUIT W/O EVEN TAKING AN OPPORTUNITY TO STEAL!(if it is as i've read, heard, was posted here.). and my statement are nowhere NEAR contrdictory w/ my knowledge of tourney poker and the play; I said UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES! sure, if you have T900,000 and 30k in in the SB, and 100 k in the pot, my chips would beat any other chips into the pot for 60k more w/ no more action. I know the math and math is NOT always the answer, other than the fact that THE MATH WAS NOT ON HIS SIDE! DS says in his tournament book something along the lines of, heads up freezeout,if you have AKs in the BB same stack sizes ,with blinds about 5 and 10% of stack size, and your opponent raises allin with what you are POSITIVE is a pair, is it proper to call a KNOWN bad side of a race, AT BEST! HE said it was, and for purposes of that specific example, it is. But I disagree when taken w/ full context. You are MUCH better off, i feel, going all in from the button w/ ANY 2 cards the very next hand than making this call, as he will fold likely ~85-90% of the time. the times he doesnt fold, you can still suck out ( if need be). I'm sure DS knows this, but again, that wasn't specifcally the point in that excercise. Once again his BEST scenario was BARELY having proper pot odds.
THE ONLY explantion that can hold ANY water here is that he took a shot to knock a dangerous opponent out( then again, at this point, they're ALL dangerous, i suppose), which is better, but still pretty bad. If the raise was much more than the 50k or so, making his pot odds less than 2-1, it's horrible no matter what. This is poker, people, at the highest level, not old maid.

Bill Murphy
03-16-2004, 10:41 PM
Vark raised to about 100K on button, Ship raised another 150K from the blind, Vark goes all in for another 750K, Ship call.

ANdy Glazer & Russell Rosenbloom(?) both have written extensively on this hand.

Barf /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Bill Murphy
03-16-2004, 10:50 PM
FWIW Huck either limped or made a small raise to 40k, Furlong made a mild re-raise to 100k, then Huck pushed another 700k. Furlong had about 1.6mil at the time.

Just terrible for someone w/Huck's experience, plus it was only the 7th hand of the day. What's the hurry?

Bill Murphy
03-16-2004, 10:58 PM
But the poster below who asked Brent awhile ago has it right.

Brent limped in SB, then Babs went all in from the BB.

Daliman
03-17-2004, 04:35 AM
Yeah, ship did play about as badly as a final table 2x cover chip leader ever has.

Daliman
03-17-2004, 04:37 AM
well, huck's play was bad because he should have known better. Noel's was worse, really, but since he didn't it was brilliant, lol!