go for the river or checkraise or no?

[mike l.]

good 3am 20-40 game. i have Ah2h in the cutoff and open raise, loose aggressive button calls, loose blinds call. flop is T22. checked to me and i bet. button and sb call. the turn is Qh giving me a four flush. i bet only the button calls. the river is 7c. should i check looking to checkraise?

hand #2: i have AA in utg. i raise, one caller utg+1, weak crummy player 3 bets in the cutoff, blinds fold, i cap it, all call. 3 of us. i bet flop dark, flop is 655, utg+1 calls, cutoff raises, i 3 bet, utg+1 folds, cutoff calls. turn is 7. i checkraise the cutoff. she calls. the river is Q no flush. should i go for the checkraise again? im pretty sure she has KK but im not sure she'll bet it.

[shemp]

#1. I can't put him on a hand, and I suppose that is your thinking behind a check, ie, to get one bet you have to check and let him bluff. Get paid. Or not. Bet.

#2. You can't put'm on a bet, but you can a call. Bet. I get weepy when worse overpairs check behind me on the river.

[Dreamer]

Its easy as poker players to try and get too tricky when straight forward poker is often the answer.

[andyfox]

Hand 1: you say he's LAG, but he's just call, call, called. He's got to now bet behind your check and then call your check-raise. I'd rather bet, hoping he's suspicious, since he seems to be in a temporarily passive mode this hand.

Hand 2: You cap the pre-flop, 3-bet the flop, and check-raise the turn. A weak player is sure likely to check behind on the river. If indeed she has kings, she's now likely to fear pocket queens as well as pocket aces.

[Eric P]

Both these situtaions you will feel a little empty spot in your stomach when he checks and you rake in the pot b ut it seems 80 bucks light

[elysium]

hi mike
hand 1) yes, you can check-raise. i think that you need to consider this in terms of check-calling of course. yea, you'd definately raise if this opponent bets, but this opponent will never call that raise.

there's something deficient about using the term 'check-raise' in almost every single check-raise situation. here, yes, you will check and raise if you check and your opponent bets, but just look mike. you are checking more because of the fact that this opponent is more likely to bet than call a bet, but he won't call a raise. so, you're saying that you're going to check-raise, and that's correct on the surface only. this check-raise, however, is really designed not to capture two bets, but only one. i think we need to define this as a one bet check-raise. is there a difference? yeah, i think so. i think it clearly defines why you are checking. yes, you could just as easily call, but you must raise. it's a must, even if you think that your opponent will fold. for crying out loud. how many times have you raised just to keep your holding secret? i think you're strong enough here for that, even if your raise has no positive expectation. when i'm strong like this, i raise to keep my hand hidden. any less than this, and i check-call. still though, calling this a check-raise is reallynot defining what you're doing and why. calling it a one bet check-raise, tells the reader that you're checking to snap off a bluff and raising for value or image. if you say you're making a value check-raise, then you are checking and raising for value, not because your opponent will bet if you check but fold if you bet. in that case, you are forfeiting the call of your bet and snapping off a bluff is not a priority. is this important? nah, probably not mike. probably not.

hand 2) don't forfeit.

[mike l.]

"Its easy as poker players to try and get too tricky when straight forward poker is often the answer."

yes but this sort of thinking is pretty intermediate or even basic poker theory. for me what's far more important than playing straight forwardly is maxing out the most on my winning hands and losing the least on my losers. that's where an expert excels in ways that merely very good players do not. and sometimes this requires playing in a manner not so straight forward.

[mike l.]

on the first hand i did go for the checkraise and he bet and then folded to my raise. it was like elysium said. sort of.

on the second hand i pussed out and bet the river dark. she had KK as advertised.

[Gabe]

Hi mike,

I would not have tried for the check-raise on either of these hands. However, I do appreciate the ground-breaking research you're doing in this area. Please keep us posted.

Gabe

[mikelow]

[balkii]

In hand one I think you should checkraise on the turn. I have been doing this more and more against aggressive players. Raise preflop, fire at the flop, then you check the turn and thats usually an insta-bet from all but the most passive players. Then you check-raise, and get 1 more bet if the want to see the river and two if they wanna showdown.

[Dreamer]

The problem is you often want to showdown straight forward hands like AA bet all the way so when you get AK you can push somebody off a better hand by betting the same way.
If you get tricky when you have a good hand and play straight forward when you are drawing/semi bluffing its obvious.
Agree you need to mix it up against opponents who you play a lot but mixing it up also involves sometimes playing hands as expected.
As Andy Fox correctly says with so much action they are likley to check behind on the river with a hand they would call with.