What do you do with this draw?

[Soh]

Hello,

PartyPoker multi-table Sunday tournament. The blinds are 200-400. It's still long way to go to place in money.

You have 8000 in chips. This guy with 3000 in chips in early position raises to 800. Everyone folded to you, and let's say you decided to call for another 400 with KQo from the BB. Heads up. The flop comes JT4r. Now what's your play?

a) Check and call.
b) Check and raise all-in if he bets.
d) Bet small amount.
e) Bet all-in.
f) Other.

Thank you

Soh

[Kevin J]

Well I know what I'd do, since I played the hand. I'd bet about 3/4 of the pot.

I really like this size bet, because I feel it covers the entire sectrum.

First of all, checking my hand is out of the question as far as I'm concerned. I want to give myself a chance to win it right there. Why should I want to draw, if there's some chance I won't have to? So if he has something like an under pair such as 77, 88, or A8s, etc., this bet should be sufficient to cause him to fold the best hand.

But what if he does have some kind of a hand? Well, now it depends on how good he feels about it. If he's not that comfortable (remember he just got a reasonable bet thrown at him after he showed strength), he might just call and check the turn (if I check it to him). I certainly don't mind a free card when I'm behind. Don't forget that if he checks it back, I still retain the option of bluffing the river depending on what I felt he had.

On the other hand, if he has a monster, he might make the mistake of trying to trap me by slow-playing. Or, he simply goes all-in, which I would quickly call, since I have him covered by a lot at this stage in the tourny.

My point is, that by not putting him all-in right away as you (Soh) suggest, I allow him more opportunities to make a mistake. I don't WANT it to cost me the maximum if I don't have to. Yet, I DO very much want him to fold some of his hands that would have me beat. I think the size bet I made accomplishes exactly that. IMO-

[eggzz]

I agree. Very sound strategy. Without knowing too much about your opponent, you figure he may have something like Aqo, he is getting close to desperate, with the BB being more than 10% of his stack.

My original thought was to bet $1000 which is half his stack. Kevin says 3/4 of the pot which is around the same amount. His only options I would think would be to call all in or fold. I couldn't make a $1000 call here,(it would be all or nothing) and if I didn't hit the flop, I would likely fold to your bet.

[sdplayerb]

I pushin. Pushing in is barely more than what is already in the pot.
If he didn't start with a pair T or higher or AJ it'll be very tough for him to call.
If he does, depending on what he has, you have a lot of outs.
Making him make the tough decision. He also may put you on JT and fold something decent.

On a side note, I would not have called with KQ to an early position raise. And that is because you got a favorable flop, and now have a tough decision for a lot of chips. I would rather not be put in such a decision.

[Soh]

One of the advantages of going all-in is that you probably will go all-in anyway if you have to, so you might as well do it yourself than call his bet or raise, so that you increase the cahnce of winning as he might fold the hands that he shouldn't had he known what the BB had.

I don't think it's a bad play to call with KQo, except when the flop comes JT2 and don't know what to do :-)

[sdplayerb]

I said the first part, glad you agree.
And yes it is bad to call with KQ. If the flop is K high, he will only call if he has you beat (AK, AA, KK, set), same with Q high (AQ, AA, KK, QQ, set).
So you will win a small pot or lose a big pot.

[Kevin J]

Um, don't you think your decision should have something do with what kinds of hands this opponent would make such a raise with? Against some, it could certainly be a fold. Against others, a clear call. Others still, it's marginal.

I don't disagree with what you're saying (about pre-flop. I DO disagee with you post-flop). But he made a $400 raise and had $2200 left. My call closes the action with potential implied odds of 27:2, because with the right flop, I could bust him.

[Kevin J]

[ QUOTE ]
Pushing in is barely more than what is already in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a pretty liberal use of the word "barely". There is $500 in the pot. Putting him all-in costs $2,600. That's over 5 times what's already in there. Hardly "barely" more than the pot.

[Kevin J]

[sdplayerb]

What flops do you but him with?
KQ, KK, QQ.
And you don't necessarily get him to call for all his chips when behind with any of those.

KQ is called a trap hand for a reason.

[sdplayerb]

Check your math.
He raised to 800. So two people have in 800, plus a 200 small blind.

That is 1,800.

[Soh]

You're right. One of the hands that I hate is KQ. This is because, for example, if I go all-in and get called, usually the caller has a pair or an Ace.

Unless you kind of know your opponent will raise 2 times the BB with weak hands, it can't be that wrong to fold KQ from the BB.

Although my main question was about the flop play, it's interesting that the discussion spread about pre-flop play.

Thank you

Soh

[sdplayerb]

You're welcome.
And you make a great point saying:
"it can't be that wrong to fold KQ from the BB."
Another reason for this is that the chips you would win here would be worth less than the chips you lose as you would become close to a short stack.

Just as an fyi, had you been the preflop raiser with KQ and that flop comes, push right in if the pot is close to yours or his stack.

[BradleyT]

Well if he has any pocket pair and you push, he's looking at a 3600 pot and has to call 1800 so he's got the right odds to call with anything from 22-AA. Of course he doesn't know you're on a draw and would probably fold 22 - 66 and possibly 88-99.

But I don't think he's behind often enough here (raise in EP with 22-77? doubtful) to not call. The blinds are coming up on him soon and if he folds here the blinds are gonna take out 600 of his 1800 he has left. I think he calls often enough and has you beat often enough to make this a -EV play for you.

[DrPhysic]

Soh,

"This guy with 3000 in chips in early position raises to 800. Everyone folded to you, and let's say you decided to call for another 400 with KQo from the BB."

I have to agree with sdplayerb. All the discussion in this thread amounts to "How do I extricate myself from the trap I already have my foot in?"

KQo is a lousy hand on a full table. See D. Brunson's list of "trouble hands" in SS. It's playable short or HU, but not on a full table, especially after a raise. In fact, I will fold it after a limp. If you had folded in the first place you would have been much better off.

Wait for a decent hand like 22, or Axs or even KQs.

Doc

[Soh]

Thanks for the posts everyone.

This is what I think.

Although those people who mentioned other than all-in have a point, I think to go all-in is the way to go, especially with the amount of the chips the raiser and the BB had.

One thing I realized about multi-table tournaments is that you got to (play well and) get lucky to win. In other words, If you just play solid poker, it makes you very dicfficult to make good money, unless you get very lucky, IMO.

By going all-in, you give yourself a chance to win a big pot (get lucky,) not to mention you give yourself a maximum chance of winning the pot on the flop.

Everyone know that you got to play different from ring games and tournaments. Maybe "gambling" once in a while with a hand that doesn't seem to be the best hand but have a reasonable chance to win is important in tournament.

I could be wrong.

Soh

[Canada Kelly]

e. And call a raise.

bet an amount that might give him the impression that you hit and he might let you get away with it and maybe draw to your hand. If he goes all-in, you have a decision to make

[cferejohn]

Hmm. This thread's been around for a couple days but I just now read it. I'm surprised by responses on a couple counts:

1. People are almost universally advocating folding to a min raise in the BB with KQo. Now, if the min-raiser had always been making 'normal' raises I might agree, since this now looks like a monster. However, if the player was a habitual min-raiser there is no way I lay this down.

2. Against most opponents, on that flop, I check-raise all-in. Again if I *know* my opponent would only min raise from EP with a big pair, I don't think this is a good idea (but I wouldn't have called preflop in the first place).

Some players will min raise in shallow money with something like a medium pair because they want to be able to lay it down. If this player has 88/99, you could well push him off of it here (and even if you don't you have a ton of outs).

If you check and he checks it back, well, hey, free card to hit your straight...

I might be too aggressive with draws in shallow money, but I like making smaller stacks make decisions for all their chips.

Your milage may vary.

[sdplayerb]

While in many instances I agree with a check raise here.
But if he bets he is pretty much pot committed, which takes this away. Thus I just push right in (if in the hand, which I'm not).

[Jonathan]

[ QUOTE ]
Soh,

"KQo is a lousy hand on a full table. See D. Brunson's list of "trouble hands" in SS. It's playable short or HU, but not on a full table, especially after a raise. In fact, I will fold it after a limp. If you had folded in the first place you would have been much better off.

Wait for a decent hand like 22, or Axs or even KQs.

Doc

[/ QUOTE ]

So 22 is a decent hand while KQo is a "trouble hand".
As a relative novice this raises a question for me which I'd like some help with. In Sklansky & Malmuth's rankings
KQ is class 4 while 22 is class 7. But Doc would prefer to play 22 preflop in this situation. Why?

I realize that S&M rankings were devised for Limit ring games, but would they be all that much different for NL tournament games? Where can I find the differences?

Thanks,
Jonathan

[Soh]

Hello Jonatahn,

The way I look at this is...
One good thing about 22 is that once you miss the flop, you can let it go, and save your chips. But if you make a set, you could collect a lot of chips.

However with KQ, you can hit a few more draws, so it could cost you a lot of chips when you don't make it, like it did with this hand. Also when K or Q comes on the flop, you don't want to fold too easily, yet you might be facing AK or AQ. In that case, basically you only have 3 outs.

By the way, S&M hand ranking is an excellent guide line when you're playing limit hold'em ring game but need more than a few adjustments when you're playing no-limit hold'em tournament.

Soh

[DrPhysic]

1. This is a personal preference backed by much reading (Brunson, et al), and much loss of $ before I figured it out.
2. Go to www.twodimes.net (http://www.twodimes.net) and run any of the three hands I mentioned against KQo on the pokenum holdem hand calculator.
3. 22 isn't much of a hand. I used it to make the point of how bad KQo really is.
4. When I said wait for a decent hand like... I picked three of the lousiest hands I could think of that were playable on a full table to make the point. Obviously, you can't spend your life waiting for AA to play a hand. There are a lot better hands out there than the ones I mentioned. Any mid to large pair, any suited connectors of reasonable size, pref pictures, any suited pictures, etc.
5. You keep betting KQo on a regular basis, and I'll keep folding it, and we'll see who has the money in the long term.

Comments DO NOT apply when playing on short table or heads up.

And yes there is a big difference between limit and NL. Sklansky's limit hand groupings simply do not apply in NL. Pairs and high cards play much more effectively in NL than is indicated in the limit hand groupings. IE: Axs and Kxs are groups 5 and 7 in the limit hand groupings if I remember right. They play MUCH higher in NL.

edit: Read "Borderline or Trouble Hands" pp505 in SuperSystem. Also file for reference that most of the HE books in print are about limit holdem. Read the NLHE section of SuperSystem. (I will be reading Ruben & Ciaffone's PL & NL Poker next.)

GL

Doc /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

People are almost universally advocating folding to a min raise in the BB with KQo. Now, if the min-raiser had always been making 'normal' raises I might agree, since this now looks like a monster. However, if the player was a habitual min-raiser there is no way I lay this down.

I agree in part. In the BB with any two connected cards (well, maybe not 32o), I'm calling a min-raise if it's folded to me, *especially* if I think the min-raise means a big pair and I have the raiser significantly outchipped. The reason being that in that scenario, it's easy to outplay the raiser.

In this case 1) If the min-raise isn't a big pair will he bet if he misses the flop? 2) If it is a big pair, will he underbet this flop to continue trying to trap you if you check?

Against many players I've seen lately, I'd be tempted to bet 1200 on this flop, which basically commits all his chips if he plays. The combination of the chance he'll fold plus the fact that I'll have pot odds to call if he pushes in makes this look like a good time to play aggressively.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Wait for a decent hand like 22, or Axs

Sorry, Doc, but I disagree. In fact, these look like precisely the kind of hands I don't want to call preflop and then play post-flop heads-up against a min-raiser.

What I want in this situation is a disguised hand that, when the flop hits me, I can be confident that it missed the raiser.

[DrPhysic]

A couple of additional thoughts on KQo:
1) I didn't say you ALWAYS throw it in. I said you ALWAYS throw it in after a previous raise. (or maybe even a limp).
2) In late position, it plays better. If you have KQo in CO or button, all fold to you, throw 2 or 3 bb on the table, steal the blinds and go away happy. If you get called, you still have a decent drawing hand. But don't forget it is a drawing hand, you have to catch a good piece of the flop to win with it.
3) With only 1 or 2 others left on the table, it does play just as good as it looks. I'd kill for a KQo in a lot of HU situations, and often have to play hands a lot worse.

Doc

[sdplayerb]

I think I would actually rather have 22 here, than KQ.
With a minraise I am getting implied odds since I am half-in. If I hit, I know I have it won. If not, I am done.
With KQ, if I hit, I really don't know for sure where I am at and he will only call if he has you beat.
I would not play Ax here though.

I really like having pocket pairs when there is a min-raise. If the chips are deep (which they are not here) I also like small suited connectors.

[DrPhysic]

sdplayerb,

I sort of agree with you about the Ax. I like Axs in almost any situation that is not going to get raised 3-4bb or more. If i can see a flop w Axs fairly cheap, I like it, because you can often take the pot on the flop if you hit the A or occaisionally the xx trip, and fold it cheap if you don't hit.

I will play Ax, (or Kxs) even though it is considered a trash hand, against a loose passive, or loose agressive player. I don't play it, or probably Axs either, against a tight passive, or especially a tight agressive player or game.

Depends on who's in the game and who has still to bet. Ie: I'll try it with Cris ahead of me and a 1bb bet, but not with Cris behind me.

Doc

[Jonathan]

By the way, S&M hand ranking is an excellent guide line when you're playing limit hold'em ring game but need more than a few adjustments when you're playing no-limit hold'em tournament.

Soh

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but what adjustments? Where can I find these adjustments described?

Thanks to all for your input.

Jonathan

[sdplayerb]

I definitely agree you have to play the players.
So the beginning to all answers is: it depends.

[DrPhysic]

That's why all the books are about limit. It is more dependent on the cards and less on the players.

In NL, IT DEPENDS....

Doc

[DrPhysic]

Start by doing a search for the words "Sklansky Karlson". Might be hyphenated. It is a thread, i beleive on poker theorey forum, from 3 or 4 months ago. Sklansky asked if one of the math types could come up with a better hand grouping, and offered a $200 bounty for the guy who could do it. I'm not completely convinced, I have a couple of disagreements with it or more correctly unanswered questions, but it is a starting place to find a better analysis of starting hands.

Doc

[Sundevils21]

I would rather have KQo than 22 or Axs against an early position min raise. I can usually figure out if I'm ahead or behind on the hand with kq, but with the other two I'm not sure. This happens to be one of the times when kq isn't a clear cut play. If you continue with kq on this flop let me ask one question, Would you continue with 22? Maybe I'm crazy but I would check-fold in this situation and wait for a better chance to pick up chips. It's too early in the tourney to risk almost half your chips. But then again maybe I'm crazy.

[DrPhysic]

If I have Ax or 22 and I hit it, of course, I bet it. Hard. If I don't hit it, it is an automatic fold.

You have KQo, catch a Q on the flop (or even a K, but not both). For sake of argument let's say the flop is K 9 2 rainbow, and I bet somewhere between 5BB and allin into you... NOW what do you do????????

Doc

[Sundevils21]

I'm not exactly sure what your question is, but if I have KQo and the flop comes K 9 2 rainbow and you bet all in for 5bb's, then I call and hope you don't have a better kicker or a set. I just wouldn't call a raise preflop with Axs or 22. Especially 22 because it's unlikely that it will hit and when it doesn't I don't know what cards beat me. With A3 suited I'm really looking for a draw(I'm not too excited about an A 9 2 rainbow flop). So even if it does flop a flush draw(which is about as likely as flopping a set) it's still in the drawing situation.

[DrPhysic]

I'm going to let this thread die at this point. We have expounded on the virtues of the different hands about as far as is reasonable.

The bottom line, to me at least, is that with the other hands, you KNOW when you have hit something that is probably the best hand at the table and you will bet, and you KNOW when you have missed and fold.

With the KQo, obviously you can bust it, or you can catch the extreme situation of KQ, KK, or QQ, but not very often. The most common situation, other than a complete bust, is you hit a K or you hit a Q... and you still don't know where you are at. Do I have the top hand? or does the bet in front of me have me badly covered????

In that situation, which is the most common one other than a complete bust, you are GAMBLING!

While I am willing to gamble, I did not come to the table to gamble, I came to the table to take your money! And in my opinion, KQo is not a good hand with which to do it.

Doc /images/graemlins/cool.gif