Taking advantage of dead money or going LAGish?

[sfer]

I can't open Bison's converter so it's back to Slavic's for this one.

Raise PF? Dumb raise on the turn or routine?

Party Poker 3/6 (10 handed)
Hero has J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif and is MP3

MP2(poster) checks, Hero raises, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, MP2(poster) calls

Flop(6 1/3 SB): J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, MP2 calls

Turn(4 2/3 BB): 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

BB checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, BB calls, MP2 folds

River(9 2/3 BB): 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif

BB checks, Hero bets, BB folds

[balkii]

I really dont think J9s is enough hand to raise preflop here, unless this is a rather tight table. Given that its party poker, I'd wait for something better, or a least a later position.

[mosch]

Personally I'd call this going LAG. J9s is a playable hand in LMP at most party 3/6 tables, but it's not worth raising pre-flop. If you could expect the big blind and the poster to fold, it would be worth a raise, but I don't think you can count on an MP poster (or the BB) to fold.

Medium suited connectors are looking for multi-way action in MP, so they can get odds to draw a big hand. If you enter this hand at all, I think limping is better play.

[BugsBunny]

Preflop raise, since it may buy you the BT, isn't a bad move.Your hand will win more than it's fair share. I would, however, probably tend to limp here most of the time (which may be a mistake thinking about it. You're first in (poster doesn't count) in LP - if the poster wasn't there you would definitely be raising so why not raise even with the poster)

Turn raise I think is fine, and was probably helped by your preflop raise.

[Clarkmeister]

Looks fine.

[Tosh]

You played it well. Nice turn raise.

[mosch]

When respected 2+2ers disagree with my position, I want to understand why. Usually I can find the justification for their opinion, but in this case that just didn't happen.

HEFAP talks about raising hands as bad as AJ and KQ here, but it seems to advocate folding here if you aren't going to get multiway action, or limping if you are. I can't find any notable posts about this move, either.

Why is this pre-flop raise a good move?

(For what it's worth, I think the rest of the hand is fine, especially given that he's against two hands that are likely to be relatively weak.)

[BugsBunny]

As I stated in my response, where I said that even though I think I would limp it would probably be a mistake:

1) A raise may buy you the button.
2) If the poster wasn't there would you raise this hand or would you limp (remember you're first in)? I think it's an easy raise - I wouldn't want to fold it. So why should a poster behind you change this thinking? The hand wins more than it's fair share - even if the BT and both blinds come along. And if you fold everyone out all the better.

If there was a genuine limper behind you then the situation would be different - because you're now no longer the first one into the pot voluntarily. Then it becomes a matter of who's the limper, from where, etc - but as it is the only money in the pot is dead money.

[colgin]

I like the way you played this. If you knock out the button (and perhaps one or both blinds) you have greatly improved your chance of winning with just top pair if you hit your jack (as you did). On the other hand, if the Button cold calls and every one else calls, I don't think you have hurt your implied odds much if your hand turns out to be a drawing hand. It seems like a pretty thin value bet on the river though.

[sfer]

I think you're right about the river bet. I'm surprised no one else commented.

[Tosh]

What is wrong with the river bet ?

[Ed Miller]

I would, however, probably tend to limp here most of the time (which may be a mistake thinking about it. You're first in (poster doesn't count) in LP - if the poster wasn't there you would definitely be raising so why not raise even with the poster)

While I think the preflop raise is fine, you are wrong when you imply that the presence of poster shouldn't change your strategy much.

[Ed Miller]

If the poster wasn't there would you raise this hand or would you limp (remember you're first in)? I think it's an easy raise - I wouldn't want to fold it. So why should a poster behind you change this thinking? The hand wins more than it's fair share - even if the BT and both blinds come along. And if you fold everyone out all the better.

While this isn't totally fair, I'll give you a little example to show why your line of thinking (why should the poster change things, you are first in) is not really helpful.

You are on the button. EVERYONE posts a blind except for you. You have A4o. What do you do? I hope you don't plan to raise... but why not? You are, after all, first in. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Ed Miller]

What is wrong with the river bet ?

Against a thinking player, the river bet is bad. Hero's turn raise has overrepresented his hand. A thinking player is unlikely to have called the turn raise with a small pair. He probably either has a draw or a jack.

Against a party idiot, though... it's hard to argue against betting the river with almost any hand at all.

[Ed Miller]

Looks fine.

Learning to play like this (betting and raising on every street with a marginal holding) is a CRUCIAL step toward crushing these small online games.

Those of you who look at this hand and see overaggression need to reevaluate your games a bit. This is REQUIRED aggression.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is this pre-flop raise a good move?

[/ QUOTE ]

He's in fairly late position and nobody has voluntarily entered the pot. Any hand worth playing is worth raising with.

[Tosh]

Against a thinking player I would agree but as you say at Party low limits there is not a particularly high percentage of thinking players.

[BugsBunny]

Because A4o isn't going to win more than it's fair share against that many people. Because A4o doesn't play well multiway - and you know you'll get a bunch of callers in this situation. With the hand in question you win more than your fair share, even if everyone left plays (and with any subset).

I'm not advocating blindly raising in this situation. If I was UTG I probably still play this hand (due to the poster), but in that case I would definitely limp. Some rational thought is still required /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Joe Tall]

HEFAP talks about raising hands as bad as AJ and KQ here, but it seems to advocate folding here if you aren't going to get multiway action, or limping if you are. I can't find any notable posts about this move, either.

J9s is going to be a neutral, if not +EV situation versus random hands here. Looks as if our Hero is in the CO or near to it meaning 3 hands to act behind him which will give him the best hand more than not. I'll even raise J9s after limpers to mix it up, never mind with such dead money in this pot.

If you choose to play in these situations, you should be routinely raising with them.

Peace,
Joe Tall