Sorry, Guy - I REALLY have to vent on this hand.....

[Gomez22]

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.stompandcrush.com/cgi-bin/hhparser.cgi)

BB ($46.75)
UTG ($76.00)
UTG+1 ($43.00)
MP1 ($62.75)
MP2 ($68.50)
MP3 ($45.50)
CO ($31.00)
Gomez22 ($49.25)
SB ($51.00)

Preflop: Gomez22 is Button with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls $0.50, UTG+1 calls $0.50, MP1 calls $0.50, MP2 calls $0.50, MP3 calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50, Gomez22 calls $0.50, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($4.50) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(9 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets $4.5, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls $4.50, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Gomez22 raises to $20, SB folds, BB folds, UTG raises to $75.5, MP1 folds, Gomez22 calls $28.75.

Turn: ($133.25) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>

River: ($133.25) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: $133.25
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: $133.25, between UTG and Gomez22.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by UTG ($133.25).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
UTG shows Kd Ks (flush, ace high).
Gomez22 shows Js Jc (flush, ace high).
Outcome: UTG wins $133.25. </font>

After, UTG started apologizing, and telling me I outplayed him here and alot of other BS. I kept my mouth shut, but this hand almost floored me here. Just had to vent a little. Talk about bad luck......

[Acesover8s]

The results suck, but his play is justifiable. Overpair on a well-coordinated board, you could be moving around with a draw or think your AJ is the nuts.

I don't know about limping behind a dozen limpers with jacks though.

For what its worth, you played the flop great.

[Gomez22]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know about limping behind a dozen limpers with jacks though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only thing I think I could have done here was PF raise maybe to $10, and see what UTG does then. I think the only better thing that could have happened here would have been if UTG pushed in BEFORE the flop..... at least I could have gotten away from the hand in that case.

I really don't mind losing to good plays, but limping with big hands (AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQs) is just asking for trouble, if you ask me. And Jacks aren't exactly the kind of hand I want to push in with pre-flop against this many limpers in front of me, but I had no read on UTG in this case.

The reason I limped behind all the limpers here is pretty simple:

I believe I HAVE to hit a set to win on the flop. No question about it. I've played with alot of the players in this game before, and at least 3 of them involved here are chasers and gamblors. I really don't think I was going more than 2 of them to fold unless I pushed in here, and even then, KK-limp-boy would have called me. Results in that case would have been the same.

The players at Paradise really are something at these $50 NL games... unbelievably loose and willing to move in with next to nothing.

[mullaney]

I don't see how you can't raise here preflop. Sure the kings are coming along too, but you have to raise. Seeing a flop with JJ against 9 players is suicidal. The flop could come all rags and you figure out far too late that you are against some strange two pair or straight. You have to figure that with all those limpers, you have the best hand most of the time. You may run into someone with AA or KK in early position, but I would rather find that out preflop when they reraise me.

[Gomez22]

I thought a general consensus was that jacks are usually a limping hand in NL play. I know that I had position here, and yeah... I may have gotten a couple players to fold, but I'm willing to bet that at least 2 would have called a large raise (15+ x the BB) and at least 4 would have called with a smaller (6-10 x the BB). 6 x the BB is my standard raise amount, just to note.

Paradise NL games are a different breed than other NL games I've been playing. Totally off-the-wall play.

If I would have raised here, 1 of 2 things happen:

1. Either UTG re-raises a good amount/pushes in, and I fold.

2. UTG calls and the results are the same.

It's not that I'm being results oriented here, but I was trapped here either way it goes, I think.

I wanted to see the flop cheap here, and make a decision then. I got my wish, but also got nailed...... nothing much to do about it now, but I can't think that my PF limp was all that bad against this big of a field of stubborn limpers.

[Acesover8s]

[ QUOTE ]
Only thing I think I could have done here was PF raise maybe to $10, and see what UTG does then. I think the only better thing that could have happened here would have been if UTG pushed in BEFORE the flop..... at least I could have gotten away from the hand in that case.


[/ QUOTE ]


No, ignore the fact that he had Kings here. Most of the time you have the best hand here. You are giving up equity by not raising it preflop. I like to overbet the pot in position here, but there would be nothing wrong with putting in a sweetener raise here (2 - 4x) which isn't going to lose anyone. It doesn't really matter if you need a good flop to win, whenever your opponents put in money when you're the favorite you are making a profit in the long run.

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't mind losing to good plays, but limping with big hands (AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQs) is just asking for trouble, if you ask me. And Jacks aren't exactly the kind of hand I want to push in with pre-flop against this many limpers in front of me, but I had no read on UTG in this case.


[/ QUOTE ]

Limping in EP with AA, KK, and sometimes weaker hands is a much undervalued play. It frequently will allow you to check(limp-)reraise the field and get most of your stack in preflop. After doing this you'd be surprised how much the table will tame up and let you limp in with hands you'd like to see a flop with (55, etc).

[Gomez22]

[ QUOTE ]
Limping in EP with AA, KK, and sometimes weaker hands is a much undervalued play. It frequently will allow you to check(limp-)reraise the field and get most of your stack in preflop. After doing this you'd be surprised how much the table will tame up and let you limp in with hands you'd like to see a flop with (55, etc).

[/ QUOTE ]

WOuldn't that really only be a valuable play at a more observant table than is typical at these limits?

[gavrilo]

[ QUOTE ]


Limping in EP with AA, KK, and sometimes weaker hands is a much undervalued play. It frequently will allow you to check(limp-)reraise the field and get most of your stack in preflop. After doing this you'd be surprised how much the table will tame up and let you limp in with hands you'd like to see a flop with (55, etc).



[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe, just maybe, but this is Paradise 50NL, people come and go so frequently I can't see this working. I'm not saying it's wrong to limp-reraise, just that this side-effect isn't likely to happen too much.

[SlyAK]

Gomez,

Well played hand to bad it didnt work out better for you. I really dont mind the limp with Jacks here. Pocket jacks is a hand that looks good pre-flop, but after the flop often doesnt seem nearly as strong... (i.e. 1 or even 2 overcards are common). You are playing it for set value here behind a ton of limpers. Based on what you say about these players they are likely to pay you off if you hit.. (which one of them did, although it didnt work out).

If raising with JJ will get you several callers I actually prefer the limp. I think JJ plays best with 1 or 2 opponents or with many opponents. If there are 1 or 2 you may be able to take the pot with a strong bet on the flop even if there is an overcard. If there are many callers, you obviously have odds to go for the set. I hate this hand if there are 3 callers or so, you cant bluff if there is an overcard on the flop because someone will almost certainly call you, and you arent getting good odds to chase the set.

Just my 2 cents worth of rambling.
/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Sly

PS. I very rarely do limp with Jacks, but I think I would have in this hand, based on how you describe the table.

[Daann]

I agree, I also like the limp with JJ with this many people playing for the set and would do it myself most of the time in this situation. This however depends if you aren't going to go mad if you just have an ovepair. If you think that your raise will cut the field down to one or maybe two callers, then that would also be a reasonable play but I get the feeling that on this table, that wasn't likely to happen.

[Guy McSucker]

[ QUOTE ]

It doesn't really matter if you need a good flop to win, whenever your opponents put in money when you're the favorite you are making a profit in the long run.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is true, but are you really the favourite with two jacks? What I mean is, it's going to be very tough to be in the lead after the flop comes down if there are more than a couple of opponents. If you don't flop a set, do you like your chances if all the money goes in post-flop? If you raise and get two callers, do you think you'll be the one taking the pot at the end over a third of the time?

I think a big raise here would be a mistake, since you are going to see an overcard on the flop most of the time and won't know how to play it. A pot-building raise, though, is a good plan, because it will make it that much easier to get all-in if you hit a set. I don't mind the limp, though.

Unrelated question: why is my name in the title here?

Guy.

[Gomez22]

[ QUOTE ]
Unrelated question: why is my name in the title here?


[/ QUOTE ]

Should have been Guys, but my typing skills are like those of a 4-year with a pixie stick addiction.....

[James282]

I would raise the jacks preflop both for value and to hopefully narrow the field - which will make it easier to play the flop.
-James