too bad phil

[gibs]

Finally saw this weeks WPT, and I must say that I love to watch Phil Hellmuth lose. I loved seeing the cowboy keep getting cards on Phil. But you do have to blame Phil for letting his opponent suck out on him. I realize that you have to change gears, but it seemed like Phil started playing a little too passively, which caused him to get sucked out on. And then, of course, he would b*tch about it /images/graemlins/laugh.gif. Oh well, can't believe Muhhamed (sp?) laid down the 2 pair at the end with how aggressive the cowboy had been playing. If he takes that pot, the outcome of tournament might have been a little different.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
If he takes that pot, the outcome of tournament might have been a little different.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or he makes the right call and goes home 30% of the time anyway, when the cowboy catches his 13-outer. The one thing most people haven't mentioned about this hand is that although Hoyt was playing very aggressively, he wasn't just throwing around chips when somebody has already shown aggression. In fact this mayve have been the only time we see him go all-in over the top of someone elses raise.

[ScottyP431]

Quote "I love to watch Phil Lose"

I can not second this strongly enough. he is just sooooo obnoxious. I have no problem with people who are good at something being aarogant as [censored], in fact i kind of like it. But i cannot stand people who are bad losers... And that whole he does meditation thing on the WSOP.... vomit inducing.

In our local home game we have a dude who goes nuts when he loses... we have nicknamed him phil....

[VegasPokerBoy]

I guess I am on the short list of people who cheer for Phil. I have always taken his obnoixous ways as being his way of getting underneath his opponents skin. All they want to do is beat him then. They start playing bad hands and making bad decisions. Phil might not knock them out but someone will. Phil then moves up in the money. Lets face it, would you rather have 9 World Series braclets and have 95 percent of people hate you or would you rather have everyone love you and be a poker nobody? Poker is a very psychological game and Phil plays that aspect better than anyone. Sorry if I am alone here. Go Phil!!! Nobody bitches better!!!

[KC50]

I'm right there with you VegasPokerBoy!

I'd like to piggy back on your thoughts. Phil (or anyone) that uses this antic as a tool to stir things up with their opponents needs to have a high tolerance against tilt themselves. Especially against those opponents who takes stands not only in their play but also their giving it back (verbally). Poker players have a lot of pride. Prime example was Sam Grizzle in last years WSOP.

My demeanor is like night and day when comparing live and online. First of all I don't do it routinely. If I did or Phil did I believe our resistance to tilt would be more in jeopardy. However I feel sometimes that I'm a lot like Phil when playing online. I feel it can be used more successfully online than live (at least for me). Poking here and there to stir things up a bit and sometimes when trying to bait 1 or 2 opponents, you might find several players observing now gunning for the "whiner" at the tables in cyber space. Some love to chat back and I usually am able to use this to my advantage. On the negative side, Phil (or the whiner) is more prone for tilt because even though you might be the AA of the field, the fishes sometime seems to swarm you like a pool of sharks and now your odds as the AA (which is still the clear favorite) will go down some. I believe it was Mike Caro saying he uses this to his advantage as well.

Again, great reply!!!

KC

[gibs]

I don't think that Phil bitches in order to get under his opponents skin. We have all been there, where some inferior player hits his hand when he shouldn't have even been in the pot. Yeah, we sometimes feel like bitching about it like Phil does all the time, but those who have played the game long enough realize that these types of players that stay in with their inferior hands are the ones that pay us off in the long run. Phil just bitches because he's mad he just lost a pot to a guy who made the "wrong" play. Now I have seen hin talk a little smack at the table to get under his opponents skin, but when he bitches about losing a pot, he's just being his same old whiney self. That's my opinion though.

[Terrapin88]

Mike Sexton had the best line of the show after phil lost to a runner runner: "We're about he hear a whine-fest from Phil".

[pretender2k]

I do have to admit, the whinning I would have done after those two running 7's would have made Phil say "Damn, suck it up man." /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ScottyP431]

Yea, i posted before i saw that episode of the WPT... That was pretty bad.

But still, i think people like TJ Cloutier show that you can act differently after a bad beat.

Didnt phil lose to like running 7's against toto on the US poker championships to?

[goofball]

no, i like phil too.

i like howard lederer better, but i'll root for phil.

and did no one notice the good sportsmanship he showed after losing, shaking hands with the other guys and saying nice hand?

inspired me to do the same when i was denied a chance to make serious money in my party multi table with i lost all in PF with KK to QQ who rivered his trips.

after collecting myself i just said nice hand and good luck. i hope i can continue to do this.

[ScottyP431]

How does shaking hands make you a good sport after you have thrown several tantrums? how does sarcastically saying good hand make you a good sport?

[Homer]

how does sarcastically saying good hand make you a good sport?

Exactly. If I were Mohammed I'd like to think that I would have said "be a man and shake my hand" or whatever it was that Hellmuth said to that magician guy who he thought was being a poor sport.

[ZManODS]

[ QUOTE ]
Exactly. If I were Mohammed I'd like to think that I would have said "be a man and shake my hand" or whatever it was that Hellmuth said to that magician guy who he thought was being a poor sport.


[/ QUOTE ]

Im not sure on this but i believe Phil was pissed because the guy was doing the "wave" and hes like "show some class and shake my hand".

If i was drawn out by somebody and they proceeded to do the "wave" i would wave my fist in the direction of their face.

[GoSox]

Nothing beats watching Phil lose, other than being the one who beats him !! It has to be tempting when you're playing against him to just call everything on him to try and knock him out. Screw the $2000 entry fee, I just want to make him go berserck !

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
and did no one notice the good sportsmanship he showed after losing, shaking hands with the other guys and saying nice hand?


[/ QUOTE ]

You have got to be kidding! Didn't you hear him slam Hoyt while shaking hands? He said something akin to " I can't wait to get another shot at you." Pretty poor sportsmanship IMHO.

[CrisBrown]

Hi Wake up,

[ QUOTE ]
You have got to be kidding! Didn't you hear him slam Hoyt while shaking hands? He said something akin to " I can't wait to get another shot at you." Pretty poor sportsmanship IMHO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see this entirely differently. I see it as a sign of respect: "Good game. Hey, I can't wait for a rematch." Phil and Hoyt have known each other for almost 20 years, and they did quite a bit of joking and laughing with each other at that table. I really think this was intended -- and taken -- as a compliment and not as a slam.

Cris

[ScottyP431]

how can u take it that way when you hear the tone in his voice?

damn, i sound like a nagging wife, "dont use that tone with me"

[ApolloQuiet]

I don't consider Phil's sarcastic tone while shaking Hoyt's and Mo's hand very sportsmanlike. If he was sincere and meant it, he has an awfully weird way of projecting it vocally. And after all the 'bad beat's' that Phil felt Hoyt gave him, he kept going on and on about them, especially where he told Hoyt he had QQ's when he had KQo. Ok, fine, lie. Tell Hoyt that he got lucky, but leave it at that. I understand the lie, but to then say how scary it is, and how he just has to play his game....blah, blah, blah. And then one last thing to cap it off. The quote that I really got a kick out of. "I can't believe how unlucky I get at these things!" Please, there are many younger players out there who would love to be in his shoes, making final tables in big tournies, making it to the final 2 or 3. As good as the game of poker has been to him, Hellmuth has no reason to complain.


"Show some class....", and quit whining.

[Rushmore]

I have been amazed that a number of posters here at 2+2, who we might assume to be decent poker players, and, therefore, have the capacity to READ PEOPLE, seem to have completely missed the fact that Hellmuth was being utterly disingenuous at the end of that tournament to both players. It was obvious he was being sarcastic, and I can't believe it's even open to discussion.

[LargeCents]

It's obvious that Hellmuth was being sarcastic and cutting to both players when he got busted. But, Hellmuth will meet these guys again. He is just setting the stage for the next showdown, in his own way. Sportsmanship? Whatever. These guys make their living taking each other down. Is there really any kind of brotherhood here? Give me a break. Respect? Yes. Compassion? Sincerity? That stuff just loses chips.

But, as for the guy who took it to heart and would show sportsmanship at his local club? Definitely. Unless you are the calibre player of Hellmuth, this crap wouldn't fly. It's the same reason that Terrell Owens, Allen Iverson and Mike Tyson get away with their own problems. They are that freakin' good. On a lesser level, Hellmuth is the Terrell Owens of the poker world.

If poker continues to grow as a televised and exhibition sport, I predict that we will see more and more of this type of behavior for the same reasons that we see more and more of it in the other major sports. More money, more fame, more power, gives bigger egos, which are too big for this world. This is especially due to the competitive nature of the game. Psychology, intimidation, trash talk can all affect the game. Why shelf the trash talk, when it gives you a read on an opponent. I am actually suprised that there isn't more trash talk thrown around the table. It could be a pretty useful skill to set someone on edge and not play their best game.

[GWB]

[ QUOTE ]
How does shaking hands make you a good sport after you have thrown several tantrums? how does sarcastically saying good hand make you a good sport?

[/ QUOTE ]
This reminds me how this fellow John Kerry acts.

[jdl22]

would have liked to see your boys tantrum when 1/2 of his major allies decided to pull out of Iraq after listening to 90% of their population.

[phishfan]

Which is why phil is great for televised poker. You either love him or hate his guts but you watch. And, if they were all just the greatest of sportsman, they would just give all the money back at the end. But who would watch that.

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
It's the same reason that Terrell Owens, Allen Iverson and Mike Tyson get away with their own problems. They are that freakin' good. On a lesser level, Hellmuth is the Terrell Owens of the poker world.


[/ QUOTE ]

Funny. When I think about admirable sports figures, I think of Barry Sanders, Bobby Clarke, Julius Erving, Lou Gehrig, Walter Payton, Joe DiMaggio, Wayne Gretzky, Jim Thorpe, and Dennis Rodman.

Now didn't it sound absurd, that last one?

There's a reason for that.

[bernie]

I dont mind phil. I mean, im not a big fan, but he does add some flavor to the game. He's the player everyone loves to hate. But here's what's unreal. Which has been mentioned already in the thread by other responders.

He didnt show to much 'class' when he shook hands and left the table. You dont get much more sarcastic than he was. Did ya see the other guys' reaction to this? They noticed it and kind of stopped a moment. His comments and actions aren't preplanned in some wierd psychological longterm ploy. That's giving him a little too much credit. He comes by it honestly. He's a frickin' baby. Sure, sometimes he may use it, but usually you can/should be able to tell the difference when he's steamed. He's not known as a psychological warfare player. He's known as a brat.

Ever notice he's not quite as obnoxious when he's winning? Not quite as whiny? Much different tone when he makes comments. Why wouldnt he use that ploy then if it was so 'useful' to his image? Why didnt he use it when he was losing at the UB tourney in Aruba? Because, again, it's not necesarily a ploy. It's a reaction to 'entitlement'. Something he hasn't quite got over yet.

It would be fun to see him and that blowhard from france(?) on a table. The guy that howard L wouldnt shake hands with after he got knocked out. (it was a european tourney) Seeing those 2 go at each other would be kinda humorous. Especially if the guy sucked out on phil big time, then asks him to pick a card to look at...

It'd be classic.

b

[scotnt73]

that would be good. i vote to also add the obnoxious guy they call .com. hes a complete ass. i notice hes gonna be on the wpt again tonight by the commercials. he shaved his head. and dont forget sam grizzle(?).

[Rushmore]

...was when that magician clown was doing the wave after cracking him out of the tourney last year.

Otherwise, literally crying at Aruba, whining in LA, making snide comments everywhere, etc. are all just a guy who cannot control his emotions, not some sort of a masterplan of gamesmanship.

[Goodwin]

[ QUOTE ]
It would be fun to see him and that blowhard from france(?) on a table. The guy that howard L wouldnt shake hands with after he got knocked out. (it was a european tourney)


[/ QUOTE ]

That would be Tony G from Australia. I think it was last year's European Grand Prix at the Aviation Club in Paris.

His best moment was when he yelled out "It's a flush!" after beating one of the Frenchmen then proceeded to tell him "You just called me straight away - didn't even stop to think about it. You ought to be more careful with your money." (paraphrasing, of course)

[scotnt73]

at the wsop on tv this year he got busted out and stood up and stated sometthing like good luck in the tournament gentlemen and turned around and walked away. i thought to myself "alright phil that was classy your getting there." of course the very next seen was him with his head on his mommas shoulder looking very close to actually crying.

[CrisBrown]

Hi scot,

[ QUOTE ]
at the wsop on tv this year he got busted out and stood up and stated sometthing like good luck in the tournament gentlemen and turned around and walked away. i thought to myself "alright phil that was classy your getting there." of course the very next scene was him with his head on his mommas shoulder looking very close to actually crying.

[/ QUOTE ]

And what's wrong with crying on his mother's shoulder? He was really psyched for the WSOP this year, and he thought it was "his year" because he was playing really well.

But his QQ lost to Jason Lester's JJ, and the very next hand he caught AKs and that lost to a pocket pair. Just that fast -- on two good hands -- he was on the rail. If he wants to walk over and cry on his mother's shoulder, I certainly can't criticize him for that.

Yes, Phil has a much-deserved reputation for complaining about his bad beats, complaining when players talk at the table while he's trying to make a decision, etc. And he's the first to admit that this is a weakness that he needs to work on, and is working on.

I guess I'm imperfect enough that I don't get a big thrill out of seeing other people's weaknesses exposed. Then again, I don't watch Jerry Springer....

Cris

[scotnt73]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi scot,

[ QUOTE ]
at the wsop on tv this year he got busted out and stood up and stated sometthing like good luck in the tournament gentlemen and turned around and walked away. i thought to myself "alright phil that was classy your getting there." of course the very next scene was him with his head on his mommas shoulder looking very close to actually crying.

[/ QUOTE ]

And what's wrong with crying on his mother's shoulder? He was really psyched for the WSOP this year, and he thought it was "his year" because he was playing really well.

But his QQ lost to Jason Lester's JJ, and the very next hand he caught AKs and that lost to a pocket pair. Just that fast -- on two good hands -- he was on the rail. If he wants to walk over and cry on his mother's shoulder, I certainly can't criticize him for that.

Yes, Phil has a much-deserved reputation for complaining about his bad beats, complaining when players talk at the table while he's trying to make a decision, etc. And he's the first to admit that this is a weakness that he needs to work on, and is working on.

I guess I'm imperfect enough that I don't get a big thrill out of seeing other people's weaknesses exposed. Then again, I don't watch Jerry Springer....

Cris

[/ QUOTE ]

if you want to define classy as a grown man crying on his mothers shoulder on tv because he got knocked out of a card game(even if it was a bad beat) then by all means...im not a Phil hater by the way(although his antics get old i think hes good for poker)...but we are talking about CLASS here not how close someone is to thier mother

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, Phil has a much-deserved reputation for complaining about his bad beats,

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate it when people constantly complain about Bad Beats. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I'm imperfect enough that I don't get a big thrill out of seeing other people's weaknesses exposed. Then again, I don't watch Jerry Springer....


[/ QUOTE ]

The ironic thing about this brave stance is that it seems intended to display other peoples' weakness for exposing peoples' weakness.

I have no weaknesses.

[TimTimSalabim]

[ QUOTE ]
if you want to define classy as a grown man crying on his mothers shoulder on tv because he got knocked out of a card game(even if it was a bad beat) then by all means...

[/ QUOTE ]

A card game? I guess so, in the same sense that a Wimbledon finals match is just "a tennis game" to Andre Agassi.

[CrisBrown]

Hi scot,

[ QUOTE ]
if you want to define classy as a grown man crying on his mothers shoulder on tv because he got knocked out of a card game(even if it was a bad beat) then by all means...

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I just don't see this as lacking class. I often see top athletes cry when they lose championship games. I once saw a very experienced computer programmer go outside to cry for a few minutes because he couldn't find a bug in the code. I've seen law students cry when they see exam grades posted, and lawyers cry when they lose a really big case.

I guess I just don't see anything "weak" or "not classy" about crying when you're disappointed. To me, it shows a lot more dignity than throwing chairs, punching walls, kicking the dog, etc. It admits the hurt in a way that doesn't threaten or inflict any hurt on anyone else.

*shrugs*

Cris

[CrisBrown]

Hi Rushmore,

[ QUOTE ]
The ironic thing about this brave stance is that it seems intended to display other peoples' weakness for exposing peoples' weakness.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not exactly, as I wasn't passing judgment on anyone else. I'm simply saying that it brings me no pleasure to see people at their worst. I know a lot of people do enjoy that; that's why "reality TV" and similar genres are so popular. When I see people at their worst -- angry, spiteful, etc. -- I think of the many times I've done the same thing, and I just don't get any pleasure from that.

I also don't like liver, but that doesn't mean I'm passing judgment on those who do....

Cris

[Rushmore]

Although I agree with the sentiment (to the degree that I am crossing over from "concerned member of humanity" to "misanthrope"), I must repeat my point, which was that you wouldn't have bothered even making the post had you not intended to display your disdain for those who clutter up the world breathing your air and acting like ugly buffoons.

Not that there's really anything wrong with it; just thought you'd like to know that at the very least it will APPEAR this way to the discerning eye.

[Rushmore]

"CRYING??! There's no CRYING in Poker!!!"

[Kinli]

[/ QUOTE ] if you want to define classy as a grown man crying on his mothers shoulder on tv because he got knocked out of a card game(even if it was a bad beat) then by all means...im not a Phil hater by the way(although his antics get old i think hes good for poker)...but we are talking about CLASS here not how close someone is to thier mother

[/ QUOTE ]



So Phil Helmuth isn't "classy" by the definitions of some people here. But I'd like to point out two things:

One, you can't read Phil by his voice. The guy is cursed with a voice that sounds whiney even when he's happy.

Two, none of the other players got followed off the floor with a TV camera. How do we know they didn't cry on someone's shoulder? Or put their fist through a wall? Or toss a piece of furniture? Or save the tears for their pillows?

Phil is under a microscope for his behavior in a way that few of us are. And very little that he does escapes the cutting tongues of the hosts because it makes for interesting commentary. They mention his bad behavior even when he's not misbehaving.

He left the table like a gentleman. After that, the cameras should have left him alone, the way they do everyone else.

Kinli

[toots]

Except that anticipation of getting to see Phil throw another hissy fit is half the reason why I watch televised poker in the first place. I mean, c'mon! This guy's an entertainer.

So, if that means he gets special treatment from the cameraman, that also means that someone gets to sell me more soap.

[J-Train]

I understand this topic is way out of date. However I would like to make a late statement pertaining to Helmuth and his exit to the 2004 WSOP. I have on more than one occasion heard bystanders make fun of his hugging his mother and nearly crying. I understand that this behavior of his probably wasn't the best for his public relations considering the hyper masculine values held by the majority of the poker community. However, at what point did it become unmanly to treat you mother kindly and embrace her as you supporter on national television? My second point is, gamers cry after wins and losses alike in every sport. When we watch the world series of baseball and a victor or loser is seen with tears on his face we do not criticize them by calling them demasculinzing names (cry baby, whinner, pussy, ect.). Many may even be moved by their passion, and emotional involvement in their games. I remind us that Phil Helmuth is a World Series winner and a professional poker player. He has a passion for the game and takes it very seriously. Yes he does have trouble acting in a way that consistent with the way we feel he should. However the man is a hell of a poker player, and I am never embarressed to see a highly competative man react to a tough beat. I encourage Phil to keep being Phil, despite the dirt he takes from his inferiors(Us).

[arod4276]

that was honestly a GREAT post agreed with every word of it

[B Dids]

Totally.

The more I watch Phil play- the more I'm impressed by him. In the Aruba tournament- there were a couple hands where I think most anybody else would have lost all their money- and he managed to stay alive. He's obviously got some amazing skills. He just complains too much. I'm sure there's 100s of poker players who are just like him or worse, but he's got a target on his back, so we know about it.

[Duke]

[ QUOTE ]
i vote to also add the obnoxious guy they call .com. hes a complete ass.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think I'll ever understand the mentality of someone who can jump into a public forum and bash people they don't know and will most likely never meet.

Is it just that there are a lot more potential scotnt73's than Duke's in the poker world?

~D

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
Why didnt he use it when he was losing at the UB tourney in Aruba?


[/ QUOTE ]

Because the Aruba tourney was a fraud. There was no money at stake.

[ QUOTE ]

It would be fun to see him and that blowhard from france(?)


[/ QUOTE ]

Australia, I think. Now THAT guy was a prick. And I had the same thought about he and Phil going at it.

eastbay

[bool]

i MUST tell my phil story...we were at the bellagio last december for the wpt taping...saw phil coming out of the bathroom in front of us. my husband had just bought his book and wanted him to autograph it so we followed him! to a $5 multi-line video poker machine. in short, TRIED to talked to him about his book (thought he might be happy that someone had bought it) but phil was not a happy camper. he had not made it into the final table (boo hoo) but he did proceed to throw a wad (and i do mean a wad - probably 4 inches thick) of $100 bills in front of us. "see i still have some money to play with!" i was thoroughly disgustingly revolted - who did he think we were? i almost told him that the video poker play he was about to make was wrong(!) but refrained (darn). of course, after we left, i thought of just about 6 absolutely correct and debilitating statements that i could have made to him...but of course, too late. IN SUMMARY, i'm sorry but phil IS a jerk.

[daryn]

i could never be a celebrity. i'm a nice guy now, but as soon as random people come up hound dogging me from the peanut gallery i might lose it too.

that said i'm not trying to say he is justified in treating you and your husband like a jerk (he WAS a jerk), i'm just saying that the same thing might happen to me if people came up to me all the time (even respectfully).

[Army Eye]

[ QUOTE ]
Totally.

The more I watch Phil play- the more I'm impressed by him. In the Aruba tournament- there were a couple hands where I think most anybody else would have lost all their money- and he managed to stay alive. He's obviously got some amazing skills. He just complains too much. I'm sure there's 100s of poker players who are just like him or worse, but he's got a target on his back, so we know about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. He's the only one who really played well on that show I thought. But the cards were just against him that day. I had the Aruba as the worst WPT episode until this season's in Paris.