River Check-Raise and I'm 3Bet?

[Styles]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.stompandcrush.com/cgi-bin/hhparser.cgi)

Preflop: Styles is SB with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button folds, Styles completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
Styles checks, BB bets, UTG folds, MP1 folds, MP3 calls, Styles raises, BB calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Styles bets, BB folds, MP3 calls.

River: (7.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Styles checks, MP3 bets, Styles raises, MP3 3-bets, Styles calls.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 13.50 BB, between MP3 and Styles.</font>

Since, I check-raised the Flop with Top-Pair and a Jack-Kicker I thought maybe MP3 had clubs, or a Ten or a Q possibly QT or a better Queen KQ/AQ. He calls my TurnBet headsup so I figure probably not the clubs, maybe he's got the Queen and not something like Trip Tens.

So, the river comes with a Jack, no clubs, and I check-raise with two-pair Queens and Jacks and I get reraised. I decide it's probably Jacks and Tens maybe JcTc since QT would have reraised me before now, and I call.

[Styles]

Hero shows Jh Qd (two pair, queens and jacks).
MP3 shows Kd 9d (straight, king high).
Outcome: MP3 wins 13.50 BB.

A F(*()*#$ing GutShot!!! Arg!

Anyway I held it together and came back pretty well but daaamn this was a brutal one.

I still think I can't be considering K9 there headsup.

What sayeth the SSer's?

[bdk3clash]

Given how much action you gave him when he hit his gutshot, it was probably right for him to stick around.

:P

Seriously, why did you get so frisky with four to a straight on board? Two pair is a good hand and all, but relative to this board...

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
I decide it's probably Jacks and Tens maybe JcTc since QT would have reraised me before now, and I call.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you really believed this, why didn't you cap?

[Styles]

[ QUOTE ]
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I decide it's probably Jacks and Tens maybe JcTc since QT would have reraised me before now, and I call.

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If you really believed this, why didn't you cap?

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OOPS, I thought explained that, but, see I left some out.

When I got 3bet, I worked back through the hand trying to decide if it was 2pair or trips or even the straight. I decided it was 'probably' two-pair, but, I feared oddly played trips or Kc9c as I had been holding 2 clubs as a possibility. I did consider 3betting, I also thought about folding, since the 3bet shocked me. I wouldn't have been too surprised to see Kc9c but Kd9d was the last thing I thought I would see here.

"decide it's probably" was not exactly "believed" /images/graemlins/wink.gif
I "believe" in God, I "decided it's probably" Jacks and Tens but I was skeptical /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Styles]

[ QUOTE ]
Given how much action you gave him when he hit his gutshot, it was probably right for him to stick around.

:P

Seriously, why did you get so frisky with four to a straight on board? Two pair is a good hand and all, but relative to this board...

[/ QUOTE ]

First I'm LMAO at that - you got me there with the 'action' line /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Because, it was Inside not Open Ended. I didn't think I would see it being 3handed after the flop and headsup on the turn (since the BB folded in front of him).

For example, if it would have been the Button instead of the BB, then there would have been someone behind him and I could have said, "well maybe he chased thinking they would call and get extra action if he hit" /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Gramps]

That's a pretty ballsy C/R on the River for Party $2/4 where any 9 has you beat. Your opponent could easily have Ac9c, Kc9c, Tc9c, 9c8c, 9c7c etc. He's played this hand so far like someone with those holdings would play it. Obviously, it turns out he was chasing with garbage, but....

If you go for the C/R, for it to have value, (1) you have to have the best hand (unless (a) your opponent would check behind you with a better hand than you saving you a bet vs. betting out - If he has the straight, he's betting it OR (b) he'd fold a better hand when C/R'd - that's not happening either), (2) he has to bet that worse hand, and (hopefully) he'll call your raise when he bets that worse hand. I'd venture that if he doesn't have a 9, unless he's an opponent that likes to auto-bluff/bet when others show weakeness, he'll check behind you with a worse hand (and one that might have called a bet).

If he has you beat, he's going to bet when checked to, you're going to raise, and he's then going to 3-bet you and you're (it appears) going to pay him off.

So....as far as the C/R here, when you're ahead, you'll probably get 0 BB on the River. When you're behind, you'll probably lose 3 BB.

I can see check-calling here as a good option. If he's on a busted flush draw, he might bet a hand he wouldn't call with. And, if he does have a 9, you only lose 1 BB (versus 3). If it's a "call-down" type opponent who will look you up to "keep you honest" with part of the flop, I don't think betting is that bad of a play.

[Styles]

[ QUOTE ]
That's a pretty ballsy C/R on the River for Party $2/4 where any 9 has you beat. Your opponent could easily have Ac9c, Kc9c, Tc9c, 9c8c, 9c7c etc. He's played this hand so far like someone with those holdings would play it. Obviously, it turns out he was chasing with garbage, but....


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Ok, I see that. Thanks. I just couldn't buy some of those "lone 9" hands, but, obviously you're right.

[ QUOTE ]
I can see check-calling here as a good option. If he's on a busted flush draw, he might bet a hand he wouldn't call with. And, if he does have a 9, you only lose 1 BB (versus 3). If it's a "call-down" type opponent who will look you up to "keep you honest" with part of the flop, I don't think betting is that bad of a play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I see that too.

Thanks.

[JTG51]

That's a pretty bad spot for a river check raise, unless you have reason to believe this opponent will bluff bet a busted draw. Many Party players will be scared to bet anything but a straight on that board, even after you check.

[JTG51]

A F(*()*#$ing GutShot!!! Arg!

Anyway I held it together and came back pretty well but daaamn this was a brutal one.

What's the big deal? How is this brutal? He had a gutshot and an overcard, his post flop play wasn't even close to brutal. Would you feel better if he hit a King instead of a Jack on the river (other than the fact that you would have lost less)?

[Styles]

[ QUOTE ]
That's a pretty bad spot for a river check raise, unless you have reason to believe this opponent will bluff bet a busted draw. Many Party players will be scared to bet anything but a straight on that board, even after you check.

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I know. I just didn't want to see that.

[Styles]

It's brutal because of the horror and the check-raise.

I could care less about his play, it's mine I worry about. Other people can post hands ridiculing people, that's not my style

Sorry, if you thought this was a "look at the terrible hand my opponent hand" it was more like "look what I walked into".

I post for me. This was my most costly hand of the day. And obviously the check-raise there was "pretty frisky" as one poster said.

I recovered, but, I didn't like being slapped around like that, but, it's just a game, afterall /images/graemlins/wink.gif

If someone just sucks-out I'm generally happy for them. You don't see me calling him an idiot do you?

I try to make good decisions and obviously some or all of this was terrible. I'm trying to figure out which (some or all).

[DeucesUp]

Of course it hurts when someone hits a gutshot against you, but take a closer look at the hand. He has a gutshot, an overcard and a backdoor flush on the flop getting 6:1 on his first call (if he could have anticipated a raise behind him he probably should've folded while if he expected calls behind then it was actually a decent play to call).

On the turn he still had up to 7 outs (overcard + gutshot). If he thought all 7 were clean (they were against you) and he assumes you'll pay off at least 1 bet on the river if he hits (you paid 3) his implied odds don't make this a bad call.

In general, going for the check-raise on the river is a fun play, you can induce some bluffs and get some medicore hands to pay 2 bets when they suddenly think you've been bluffing all along. But this wasn't the hand to do it because you didn't consider the possibility of getting 3-bet. I mean weren't you scared of Q9 or T9 which seem like reasonable holdings as well?

edit: Sorry, I see others made some of the same comments before I submitted this post.

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I see that. Thanks. I just couldn't buy some of those "lone 9" hands, but, obviously you're right.


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At PartyPoker $2/$4 it doesn't matter what the "lone x" is. Many PartyPoker $2/$4 players will play any Ace and many of those any Ace players will also play any King and sometimes any Queen. In addition to the any-Acers, you have the players who can not release a pocket pair. You also have the any two suited players, the any two connected players, the any two one-gap players, the anything from the blinds players and the any two cards players. If there's a four-straight gutshot out there, no matter what the missing card is, there is a good chance one of your opponents has it. The death card is not going to be out there every time but it is going to be out there way to often to check-raise this river.

SpaceAce

[Styles]

Yea, I see what you're saying ... but when he semi-bluffs and then calls the check-raise on the flop and called when I bet back into him, I put him on something other than a total draw. Something like a pair and a gut sure, but not an OC and a gut unless, they were clubs.

Again, I based this alot on the fact that the 3rd hand folded in front of him before he called and I had check-raised and bet back into him.

Of course, I realize that most people here claim no one ever folds, but, I am not in the habit of having my check-raises called down headsup with a pure draw so I was shocked and obviously paid dearly for it on the end.

I guess I felt that since I check-raised the flop I should have eliminated that particular hand and that when I got 3bet and went "damn wtf did he hit? what did he bet and then call me with" K9 no clubs wasn't something I gave serious weight. Obviously I was aware there were some hands he could have that had a 9, but I thought he might have raised me on the turn with those hands. So, that just wasn't one of them I thought I still had to worry about.

IE if I had Ac9c or T9, I'd have probably raised the turn.

I got biyatch-slapped what else can I say?

[chesspain]

I hate the checkraise here. With a four-card Str8 on the board, your opponent is way more likely to call a bet with a piece of the board than he is to bet himself, unless he has you beat. I look at your situation akin to being HU on the river with a flush against a paired board, in which I usually bet out, so that I am playing to win or lose 1-2 bets, rather than 0 or 3 bets.

[Styles]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate the checkraise here. With a four-card Str8 on the board, your opponent is way more likely to call a bet with a piece of the board than he is to bet himself, unless he has you beat. I look at your situation akin to being HU on the river with a flush against a paired board, in which I usually bet out, so that I am playing to win or lose 1-2 bets, rather than 0 or 3 bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, Thanks.